Iron/Magnesium deficiency - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Iron/Magnesium deficiency

My swords have been showing a micro/iron deficiency for a while. I tried upping my micronutrients dose so that iron is dosed 0.5ppm 3x a week (EI)

I haven't seen much improvement and am starting to if it even is iron. The veins are still dark so it could definitely be magnesium. I didn't think it could be magnesium as my GH is quite high (15 degrees/260ppm). Maybe the GH is comprised of mainly calcium and magnesium is lacking.

Solutions:

1. Add magnesium sulfate to my macro bottle

2. Keep increasing micronutrients dosing to get more iron. Copper and other nutrients could get too high though.

Maybe I need to be dosing this at much higher levels because apparently EDTA chelation is unstable at higher pH and hardness so iron will precipitate before absorption.

3. Add iron chelate (EDTA) to my micro bottle to increase iron but not other nutrients.

Which is best? I honestly can't tell if this is an iron or magnesium problem. It seems like I can never get these swords to grow properly lol.

pH: 7.2 with CO2, 7.7 degassed
KH: 10
GH: 15 degrees or 260ppm

Trace mix I am using is from Aquariumplantfooduk.




Cheers


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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:42 PM
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I would try a root tab instead.

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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:49 PM
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JBL has a Freshwater Mg test kit if you wanted to make sure what your level is at.

Do you have access to Fe DPTA?


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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarlloydjohn View Post
My swords have been showing a micro/iron deficiency for a while. I tried upping my micronutrients dose so that iron is dosed 0.5ppm 3x a week (EI)

I haven't seen much improvement and am starting to if it even is iron. The veins are still dark so it could definitely be magnesium. I didn't think it could be magnesium as my GH is quite high (15 degrees/260ppm). Maybe the GH is comprised of mainly calcium and magnesium is lacking.

Solutions:

1. Add magnesium sulfate to my macro bottle

2. Keep increasing micronutrients dosing to get more iron. Copper and other nutrients could get too high though.

Maybe I need to be dosing this at much higher levels because apparently EDTA chelation is unstable at higher pH and hardness so iron will precipitate before absorption.

3. Add iron chelate (EDTA) to my micro bottle to increase iron but not other nutrients.

Which is best? I honestly can't tell if this is an iron or magnesium problem. It seems like I can never get these swords to grow properly lol.

pH: 7.2 with CO2, 7.7 degassed
KH: 10
GH: 15 degrees or 260ppm

Trace mix I am using is from Aquariumplantfooduk.




Cheers
Hi oscarlloydjohn,

That is because it is not a magnesium or an iron deficiency. It appears to be a manganese deficiency. Notice how the leaves have a 'netted' effect with just the smaller leaf veins remaining green. I would suggest adding either more micro-nutrients (if it contains manganese) or Seachem Equilibrium. You can also use manganese sulfate but the amount needed is very small (about 3 milligrams per 10 liters). Obviously when you do water changes add 3 milligrams per 10 liters of new water added. Hope this helps!

Quote:
B. Terminal bud remaining alive. Symptoms on new growth.

1. Interveinal chlorosis on young leaves.

b. Interveinal chlorosis with smallest veins remaining green producing a checkered or finely netted effect. Grey or tan necrotic spots usually develop in chlorotic areas; the dead spots of tissue may drop out of the leaf giving a ragged appearance. Poor color. Potassium excess can inhibit uptake of manganese... manganese deficiency

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Last edited by Seattle_Aquarist; 04-04-2018 at 04:04 PM. Reason: ..
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post
Do you have access to Fe DPTA?
Unfortunately not unless I buy in huge bulk quantities from the manufacturer. Basically any chelated consumer grade product I can get in the UK is EDTA.


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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:10 PM
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I would advise looking at the manganese question first thought.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:17 PM
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Might look to Kent Marine Iron/manganese.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Hi oscarlloydjohn,

That is because it is not a magnesium or an iron deficiency. It appears to be a manganese deficiency. Notice how the leaves have a 'netted' effect with just the smaller leaf veins remaining green. I would suggest adding either more micro-nutrients (if it contains manganese) or Seachem Equilibrium. You can also use manganese sulfate but the amount needed is very small (about 3 milligrams per 10 liters). Obviously when you do water changes add 3 milligrams per 10 liters of new water added. Hope this helps!
Awesome, I see it now!

Maybe I looked over manganese since it is not mentioned very much. My micro mix does contain manganese at 1.82%. Is there a specific ppm I should be looking to dose? At the moment I am dosing 0.12ppm 3x per week. If I were to dose my micros to reach 0.3ppm (which you suggested as a dose for manganese sulfate) I think I would run into copper toxicity with Amano shrimp I am hoping to get soon.


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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by oscarlloydjohn View Post
Awesome, I see it now!

Maybe I looked over manganese since it is not mentioned very much. My micro mix does contain manganese at 1.82%. Is there a specific ppm I should be looking to dose? At the moment I am dosing 0.12ppm 3x per week. If I were to dose my micros to reach 0.3ppm (which you suggested as a dose for manganese sulfate) I think I would run into copper toxicity with Amano shrimp I am hoping to get soon.
Hi oscarlloydjohn,

If increasing your micro dosing is not an option you can go to Ebay UK and purchase "Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate - 98% pure 50g-100g-200g 10034-96-5" 50 grams will cost 3.87 plus 3.00 postage. You may need to purchase a milligram scale as well unless you already have one.

Roy_________
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi oscarlloydjohn,

If increasing your micro dosing is not an option you can go to Ebay UK and purchase "Manganese (II) sulfate monohydrate - 98% pure 50g-100g-200g 10034-96-5" 50 grams will cost 3.87 plus 3.00 postage. You may need to purchase a milligram scale as well unless you already have one.
Few extra questions:

Would it be possible to make a solution like we do with other salts?

What total manganese PPM should I am for in my dose? (3x per week)

Can I mix it with my micronutrients bottle? (provided I got the right concentrations)

Maybe the manganese is not being used by the plants because it EDTA chelated. Would it be better to just switch to a different micro solution?


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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarlloydjohn View Post
Few extra questions:

Would it be possible to make a solution like we do with other salts?

What total manganese PPM should I am for in my dose? (3x per week)

Can I mix it with my micronutrients bottle? (provided I got the right concentrations)

Maybe the manganese is not being used by the plants because it EDTA chelated. Would it be better to just switch to a different micro solution?
LOL oscarlloydjohn, just a few extra questions??!!

Actually they are all good questions.

1) Yes you could mix a solution.

2) The accepted target level for dosing is 0.1 ppm for Mn

3) Yes, it could be added to the bottle with your current micro-nutrients

4) As far as I am aware iron (Fe) that is EDTA chelated is the only EDTA chelated micro-nutrient that is severely adversely effected by high pH, most EDTA micro-nutrients are only minimally effected by high pH and some actually show improved availability as the pH increases.

Roy_________
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
LOL oscarlloydjohn, just a few extra questions??!!

Actually they are all good questions.

1) Yes you could mix a solution.

2) The accepted target level for dosing is 0.1 ppm for Mn

3) Yes, it could be added to the bottle with your current micro-nutrients

4) As far as I am aware iron (Fe) that is EDTA chelated is the only EDTA chelated micro-nutrient that is severely adversely effected by high pH, most EDTA micro-nutrients are only minimally effected by high pH and some actually show improved availability as the pH increases.
Alright, I think I will add some root tabs and increase my micro dosing. Considering that I am already dosing 0.12ppm, these swords must be very hungry! If that doesn't work then I will have a look into manganese sulfate.

Thanks


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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old 04-04-2018, 04:58 PM
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aquariumplantfood

Fe 0.1 (CSMB 0.1)
Mn 0.0222 (CSMB 0.0286)
B 0.0128 (CSMB 0.0186)
Zn 0.0142 (CSMB 0.0159)
Mo 0.0018 (CSMB 0.0009)
Cu 0.0028 (CSMB 0.0014)


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Last edited by Edward; 04-04-2018 at 11:05 PM. Reason: rounding numbers
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