Happi's Recipe with Micro/Macro and Everything - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 05:26 AM
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Hi @happi.

thanks for posting , i see majorly two versions one is B 0.004 and other is B 0.014, which one to dose when?
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post #32 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
@happi,

Recently, I've been thinking about adding fulvic acid (can't hurt) to my daily micro dosing and just saw your comment on it. May I ask what your source is (customhydronutrients mentioned above?) and how you determine dosage amount / gallon?
Deanna, I got my Fulvic Acid from Kelp4less few years ago. Far as how much to add and how I came up with that? well far as I know there is no way to accurately figure out the correct dose unlike other chemicals which gives us a % of certain content which can be calculated easily. With Fulvic Acid its little bit tricky, the closest we could come to calculate It, is by calculating the Carbon content based on https://www.webqc.org/molecular-weight-of-C14H12O8.html

Honestly, I have only tested it in my tank for few months, while it could give good results, but at the same time it could also cause this algae that looks like cyano and usually form on the tip of the plants, the results from using Fulvic acid was similar to adding Urea, there is tons of organics in this acid and you could expect some good amount of organic Nitrogen coming from this Acid, I add about 0.15-0.25 gram of Fulvic acid in my recipe for testing purposes, Adding too much resulted in some algae.

I also played with Humic acid and it probably isnít best used when mixing with the solutions.


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Hi @happi.

thanks for posting , i see majorly two versions one is B 0.004 and other is B 0.014, which one to dose when?
you can use any of the above recipe from the list according to your needs, I wouldnít go based on which recipe to use just based on the Boron. However, try to maintain Fe levels around 0.1-0.3 ranges weekly, you can split the doses in daily dose or dose 2-3x week or however you like, but I wouldnít dose 0.3 ppm Fe in single dose. also, the only time you need to add more if your water is rich in PH/KH or say liquid hard.

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post #33 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
Deanna, I got my Fulvic Acid from Kelp4less few years ago. Far as how much to add and how I came up with that? well far as I know there is no way to accurately figure out the correct dose unlike other chemicals which gives us a % of certain content which can be calculated easily. With Fulvic Acid its little bit tricky, the closest we could come to calculate It, is by calculating the Carbon content based on https://www.webqc.org/molecular-weight-of-C14H12O8.html

Honestly, I have only tested it in my tank for few months, while it could give good results, but at the same time it could also cause this algae that looks like cyano and usually form on the tip of the plants, the results from using Fulvic acid was similar to adding Urea, there is tons of organics in this acid and you could expect some good amount of organic Nitrogen coming from this Acid, I add about 0.15-0.25 gram of Fulvic acid in my recipe for testing purposes, Adding too much resulted in some algae.

I also played with Humic acid and it probably isn’t best used when mixing with the solutions.
Thanks, much. I think that I'll try it as well. There seem to be several fulvic acid products on Amazon that are designed for hydroponics.

Very interesting that you had the strong correlation to algae growth (first direct connection that I've encountered), albeit some odd form of algae. Like our dosing of urea or NH4 (in your case), which are attempts to match what our fish provide in the favored form of N to our plants, the organic stream from our fish also includes the humins, such as fulvic acid. The hydroponics people do know this to be beneficial, but perhaps our fish don't supply enough. We all attribute algae expansion to "organics" as a catch-all phrase and try to limit the "organics" development and clean it out to prevent this. Perhaps the various humin components play a big role in this. I wonder if various BB that develop consume humins or if there is any type of media that would.
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post #34 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
Thanks, much. I think that I'll try it as well. There seem to be several fulvic acid products on Amazon that are designed for hydroponics.

Very interesting that you had the strong correlation to algae growth (first direct connection that I've encountered), albeit some odd form of algae. Like our dosing of urea or NH4 (in your case), which are attempts to match what our fish provide in the favored form of N to our plants, the organic stream from our fish also includes the humins, such as fulvic acid. The hydroponics people do know this to be beneficial, but perhaps our fish don't supply enough. We all attribute algae expansion to "organics" as a catch-all phrase and try to limit the "organics" development and clean it out to prevent this. Perhaps the various humin components play a big role in this. I wonder if various BB that develop consume humins or if there is any type of media that would.
you will find several companies sell Fluvic acid and its not same or you can say its different from each other especially in term of quality. far as the organic goes, am quite confident to say they do contribute to several algae's issues. adding excess amount of Urea can result in BBA and that Cyano on tip of the plant which appear to look dark in color and same odor as Cyano. Urea or NH4 isn't a problem when dosed properly.

honestly, I haven't seen any BBA for several years now. while I still conduct several experiments I do run into issues with plants and Algae, but again that is the whole purpose of my experiment to begin with.

in case you were interested, these are next on my list especially the first two, 99% people will never see this in any of the recipes as they are not needed or already present in the water, i just wanted to give them the test to see if they benefit the plants.

Rubidium Sulfate
Vanadyl Sulfate Pentahydrate
Aluminum Sulfate
Rubidium Iodide-
Titanium DiOxide
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post #35 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
Rubidium Sulfate
Vanadyl Sulfate Pentahydrate
Aluminum Sulfate
Rubidium Iodide-
Titanium DiOxide
Yes, I've seen some of those ingredients in various manufacturer's formulas and wondered why. However, like many of the traces, I believe that these all sneak in through fish food.
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post #36 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 08:56 PM
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I also usually keep my water at 10 ppm Calcium, 4 ppm Mg, about 4-8 ppm Potassium .. if you are keeping fish and feed decent amount of food, I see no real reason to add N and P, unless you are pushing for extreme plant growth.
What are your favorite NO3 and PO4 concentrations without fish?
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post #37 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-19-2020, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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What are your favorite NO3 and PO4 concentrations without fish?
in most cases:
8.84 ppm NO3 weekly (2 ppm N coming from NH4NO3, truly only 4.42 ppm NO3-N weekly, rest is NH4-N)
0.8 ppm PO4 weekly

in some cases I double the dose if I want aggressive plant growth
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post #38 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-26-2020, 02:32 AM Thread Starter
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Simple Macro Recipe Version #1, based on 500 ml solution, 20 ml per 50 gallon

17.08 grams KNO3
NO3 2.2100
N 0.4992
K 1.3935

5.072 grams Urea CO(NH2)2
N 0.5000

2.765 grams KH2PO4
PO4 0.4
P 0.133
K 0.17

N 1
P 0.13
K 1.56


Very Simple Macro Recipe Version #2, based on 500 ml solution, 20 ml per 50 gallon

34.1014 grams KNO3
NO3 4.4200
N 0.9984
K 2.7869

2.765 grams KH2PO4
PO4 0.4
P 0.133
K 0.17

N 1
P 0.13
K 2.957

Advance Macro Recipe Version #3, based on 500 ml solution, 20 ml per 50 gallon
13.520136 grams NH4NO3
N 1
NH4 0.64
N-NO3 0.5
N-NH4 0.5

2.078931 grams KH2PO4
PO4 0.3066
P 0.1000
K 0.1262

8.43 grams K2SO4
K 0.8000
S 0.3281

Advance Macro Recipe Version #4, based on 500 ml solution, 20 ml per 50 gallon

6.76 grams NH4NO3
N 0.5
NH4 0.32
N-NO3 0.25
N-NH4 0.25

8.5254 grams KNO3
NO3 1.105
N 0.25
K 0.7

2.5360 grams Urea CO(NH2)2
N 0.2500
N 1

2.765 grams KH2PO4
PO4 0.4
P 0.133
K 0.17



Advance Macro Recipe Version #5 (Marchner Ratio), based on 500 ml solution, 10 ml per 50 gallon (make two seperate bottles for this one)

Bottle #1

19.6 gram KNO3
NO3 1.2707
N 0.2870
K 0.8012

22.34 gram Ca(NO3)2.4H2O
Ca 0.4005
NO3 1.2393
dGH 0.0561

13.33 gram Mg(NO3)2.6H2O
Mg 0.1335
NO3 0.6810
N 0.1538
dGH 0.0308

3.78 gram Urea
N 0.1866
NO3 0.824

Bottle #2

5.5 gram KH2PO4
PO4 0.4056
P 0.1323
K 0.1670

Recipe #5 Note: DO NOT MIX KH2PO4 with the other chemicals, keep it separate.


Maintain 2-3 N weekly, which is Equivalent to 8.8 - 13.2 ppm NO3, Use N as Proxy

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post #39 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-26-2020, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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here are some pictures of good, bad and the worse from some of the experiments gathered in several years, i will continue to upload more pictures in my free time, there are tons of pictures to share:

https://happi-singh.imgbb.com/

as you can see there are several good and several bad pictures of the plants, the purpose of the experiment was to observe plant health under different ratio, PPM, Chemicals, including varieties of light spectrums, Necrosis and chlorosis on plants were also observed under several conditions. these set of picture were not designed to impress you by only posting a good one and not sharing the bad one, it was designed for you to see how plant respond under different conditions.

algae also responded to several different ratio, fertilizer and such. in some cases algae grew equally well along with the plants when condition were setup wrong on purpose, especially the fertilizer.

root tabs were also put to the test, while root tabs benefited some plant simply by leaching into the water, it also caused several type of algae issues and negative impact on plant health. root tabs are not needed, it was observed that aquatic plant should grow quite well even free floating as well as in inert substrate, under this condition plant seems to grow well when NH4/Urea is the major source of Nitrogen and other nutrients were present in the water. once NO3 was the only source of the Nitrogen, plant would struggle unless there is a NH4 leaching from somewhere, from fish or soil.

Urea, when Urea was added to the water, some plant from the soil will appear that were never there before or previously removed completely. it could be seeds that seems to be triggered by the addition of urea. i observed several plant would only appear when urea was added and they would stop appearing once urea was replaced by NO3 as a nitrogen source. it was also observed, under NH4/Urea dosing very little Calcium was needed and there were no calcium deficiency under even 1 ppm Calcium weekly.

several plant are very sensitive to cold water, i observed that some plant would melt away if you added cold water to drop the temp from 78 to 60, under this condition Rotala Sunset for example dropped its leaves and slowly melted away.

another observation was made where plant started to show more issue was when the balance shifted from NH4 to NO3 or simply say when NO3 became more dominated source of N, under such condition twisting became quite evident and rich color faded away. keeping the NO3 low seems to be more beneficial and let the plant use much of the NH4 coming from your tank naturally or by adding small doses of NH4 daily. if No3 is high, adding some addition of Nh4/Urea will reduce the issue mentioned above.

i used the following recipes in most cases with great results
Micro #2 or #6, 0.1 ppm Fe weekly
Macro # 3 or #4, 1-2 ppm N weekly, 0.4-0.8 ppm Mg weekly


there are several other observation which i will share in my free time
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Last edited by happi; 11-29-2020 at 06:41 AM. Reason: update
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post #40 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-27-2020, 04:16 PM
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Hi happi
Here is a chart with your seven trace element versions listed in post #29. Can you tell us why so many and which one should we use? I entered Hydroplus Tenso Cocktail that has also high copper as your versions 5 and 6 in ratio to the other elements. Did you find more copper helpful?


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post #41 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-29-2020, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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@Edward Thanks for posting the Data. i can only speak of what works best for me and should work well for others, all these recipes are based on tested ratio and the response of the plants. nothing is set in stones and all these recipes can be modified for the user, for example: if one require more Fe, they can add more if their water doesn't favor the Fe very well in term of PH/KH or high PO4, but these recipe should work well as they are.

the reason i have multiple recipes is because some of them use different source of chemicals especially the Fe, some user can choose to use varieties of Fe or mix different kinds of Fe as they wish. after several experiments, i settled between Tropica and Tenso numbers in term of PPM, keep in mind i usually only added 0.1 Fe as proxy per week, amount of Cu is still low compared to some of the name brand such as Tropica, but i find the additional copper to enhance the red colors in plants and tank water usually remain quite clear.

in conclusion, plant seems to do well under Tropica and tenso ppm numbers or the between the two, somewhere in the middile. furthermore, NH4NO3 or Urea produced the best results when combined with these recipes.

here is the quick breakdown for my dosing approach:

Dose 0.1-0.2 Fe as proxy weekly from any of my Micro recipe
Dose 2-3 N weekly as Proxy weekly from any of my Macro recipe
Dose or maintain about 10 ppm Ca, 4 ppm Mg and about 4 ppm K, 8 ppm K should be Maximum and honestly 4-5 ppm K is plenty.

i also find the Fe and Mn to play much more major role in term of Micro, so i maintain 2:1 ratio as i mentioned earlier, it has been lately being confirmed by some users that Mn is quite important after they started adding more. i discovered this many years back when i had rich colors while using Miller then followed by Tropica Clone.

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post #42 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-29-2020, 08:22 AM
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after several experiments, i settled between Tropica and Tenso numbers in term of PPM, keep in mind i usually only added 0.1 Fe as proxy per week, amount of Cu is still low compared to some of the name brand such as Tropica, but i find the additional copper to enhance the red colors in plants and tank water usually remain quite clear.

in conclusion, plant seems to do well under Tropica and tenso ppm numbers or the between the two, somewhere in the middile.
Nice observations. So you found Tenso and Tropica having the best results. Your trace element versions #1, #2, #3, #4 and #7 resemble Tropica ratios, and #5, #6 Tenso.





These are two different products in terms of ratios. When should we use one or the other?

Quote:
furthermore, NH4NO3 or Urea produced the best results when combined with these recipes.
I donít see nickel in your trace elements. Isnít nickel necessary for plants in order to process urea? How did you solve this issue?
Quote:
Dose 0.1-0.2 Fe as proxy weekly from any of my Micro recipe
Translated to daily language 0.014 Ė 0.029 ppm Fe a day.
Quote:
Dose or maintain about 10 ppm Ca, 4 ppm Mg and about 4 ppm K, 8 ppm K should be Maximum and honestly 4-5 ppm K is plenty.
What methodology do you use to maintain 4 ppm of K?


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post #43 of 52 (permalink) Old 11-29-2020, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
I wonder if various BB that develop consume humins or if there is any type of media that would.
I think this is too complex and we will never know because there is about infinite number of compounds in this family. Some become food for bacteria and some can last hundreds of years maybe longer. There is a good chance BBA love to feed on some of those compounds, thatís why it is so mysterious algae.
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adding excess amount of Urea can result in BBA Ö
I donít think it is caused by urea itself but rather by stressed plants reacting to higher than normal urea or NH3 - NH4 levels.
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post #44 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 02:41 AM
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once NO3 was the only source of the Nitrogen, plant would struggle unless there is a NH4 leaching from somewhere, from fish or soil.

it was also observed, under NH4/Urea dosing very little Calcium was needed and there were no calcium deficiency under even 1 ppm Calcium weekly.

another observation was made where plant started to show more issue was when the balance shifted from NH4 to NO3 or simply say when NO3 became more dominated source of N, under such condition twisting became quite evident and rich color faded away. keeping the NO3 low seems to be more beneficial and let the plant use much of the NH4 coming from your tank naturally or by adding small doses of NH4 daily. if No3 is high, adding some addition of Nh4/Urea will reduce the issue mentioned above.
Iíve read, in the aquaponics/hydroponics world, that when the NO3/NH4 ratio is low, Ca (and Mg and K) is increasingly impacted. Would you say that this is what you are seeing with your Ca observations?

Similarly, Iíve read some comments, in the aquaponics/hydroponics world, that plants increasingly prefer increasing NO3/NH4 ratios as pH drops below 6. Have you seen any indication of this?
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post #45 of 52 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 09:27 AM
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Hello, Happy. I wanted to know how you're going to dissolve TiO2, it doesn't seem to dissolve in water.
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