Curling margins on limno rugosa - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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Title says it all, the margins curl under..
Not sure what's the cause, maybe an induced deficiency from over dosing P?





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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 05:02 PM
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Most likely a Ca deficiency. P toxicity is hard to achieve, and if you hadn't mentioned dosing high P, I would have said that was another possibility as curling margins can be due to either in some plants.

That looks like older growth worth newer growth not as bad. I wouldn't expect them to repair.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by natemcnutty View Post
Most likely a Ca deficiency. P toxicity is hard to achieve, and if you hadn't mentioned dosing high P, I would have said that was another possibility as curling margins can be due to either in some plants.

That looks like older growth worth newer growth not as bad. I wouldn't expect them to repair.
Water is pure ro/di set to gh 5, substrate has montmorillinate also adding calcium up to gh 7..
Def not calcium!
Can anything induce P deficiency? I know some things are agonistic


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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:18 PM
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Hi @Chlorophile,

Thank you for the good photos, it helps when trying to determine the cause of plant growth issues.

When you look at the leaves in your photos what do you see? Describe what the newest leaves look like, the recently matured leaves, and the old leaves look like to you.

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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
Title says it all, the margins curl under..
Not sure what's the cause, maybe an induced deficiency from over dosing P?
I doubt it's from too much P. I dose loads (about 10ppm weekly), and my Rugosa is doing very well. How much are you dosing??

That being said, who knows as you might have a little different mix of everything compared to me, and might be reacting differently with each other.

But you are right, it does not look happy. And I notice what ever kind of grass is to the right of it has some algae and doesn't look happy either. Where are these in the tank? Getting enough light?

Just curious as Rugosa is usually pretty easy to keep happy.


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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Chlorophile,

Thank you for the good photos, it helps when trying to determine the cause of plant growth issues.

When you look at the leaves in your photos what do you see? Describe what the newest leaves look like, the recently matured leaves, and the old leaves look like to you.
Limnophilia rugosa https://imgur.com/gallery/dKO6o
Here is a link to the gallery, I am bad at posting pics from my phone so hopefully this works for you.
The new growth seems okay but about two notes down I start to get the margins of the leaf just sort of rolling under, not really hooking or anything else.

Water is reconstituted with seachem equilibrium


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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:35 PM
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Hi @Chlorophile,

Describe what your older/oldest leaves look like.

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 09:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
I doubt it's from too much P. I dose loads (about 10ppm weekly), and my Rugosa is doing very well. How much are you dosing??

That being said, who knows as you might have a little different mix of everything compared to me, and might be reacting differently with each other.

But you are right, it does not look happy. And I notice what ever kind of grass is to the right of it has some algae and doesn't look happy either. Where are these in the tank? Getting enough light?

Just curious as Rugosa is usually pretty easy to keep happy.
I'm down to 3ppm 3x a week
I was up at 12ppm total per week but decided to try less.
The new growth is stunning, if you look at my imgur album the leaves are just so beautiful and the light reflects off of them into these nice little sparkly patterns.
The first pics I posted were with the lights off

The grass is Blyxa, and its a very happy plant it grows super well, not sure where that algae is coming from.
I am gonna back of traces incase I'm going a bit crazy on the iron. That weird kinda hair algae tends to ebb and flow in my tank on a weekly basis, sometimes I wake up and its all gone lol.


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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Chlorophile,

Describe what your older/oldest leaves look like.
Pretty healthy, normal color and everything except the margin is rolled under all the way around the leaf.



Here are the pics from the album, I'm on my computer now.





and then one of the older leaves with the curling


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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:10 PM
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P isnt really toxic, the problem sometimes is it interfering with something else. That something else is usually Fe, which affects new growth. This isnt that.

Alternatively, too much Fe can interfere with P as well. It "might" be that but it's impossible to say just looking at a few pics.

In the very bottom pic of the first post, is that a stump? I dont see the rest of the plant. The existing leaves from stumps shouldnt be worried about. Especially a very short stump with only two sets of leaves remaining. Those leaves often degrade as the plant reabsorbs mobile nutrients to fuel new growth.

Mature leaves of this plant naturally have a curl around the edges.




Granted some of yours are cupped pretty bad, but a lot of the newer growth looks fine. I dont think the plant is entirely happy but its probably not worth focusing on.

You've made a lot of pretty significant changes lately. We could speculate all day long why a few leaves look that way but I believe it'd be rather pointless.

As Gregg pointed out the grass has a little algae and the red ludwigia looks a little puckered up. So things arent entirely right.

For now I'd focus on good cleaning and maintenance, and keeping a stable KH, GH and CO2. Need to stop screwing around with the former. Pick something and stay there for a few weeks.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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P isnt really toxic, the problem sometimes is it interfering with something else. That something else is usually Fe, which affects new growth. This isnt that.

Alternatively, too much Fe can interfere with P as well. It "might" be that but it's impossible to say just looking at a few pics.

In the very bottom pic of the first post, is that a stump? I dont see the rest of the plant. The existing leaves from stumps shouldnt be worried about. Especially a very short stump with only two sets of leaves remaining. Those leaves often degrade as the plant reabsorbs mobile nutrients to fuel new growth.

Mature leaves of this plant naturally have a curl around the edges.




Granted some of yours are cupped pretty bad, but a lot of the newer growth looks fine. I dont think the plant is entirely happy but its probably not worth focusing on.

You've made a lot of pretty significant changes lately. We could speculate all day long why a few leaves look that way but I believe it'd be rather pointless.

As Gregg pointed out the grass has a little algae and the red ludwigia looks a little puckered up. So things arent entirely right.

For now I'd focus on good cleaning and maintenance, and keeping a stable KH, GH and CO2. Need to stop screwing around with the former. Pick something and stay there for a few weeks.
Thanks for that pic, I'd say most of the leaves don't look more curled than those in your pic, but there are one or two outliers.

Not sure which one you're talking about, I don't have any stumps but I did break off most of the little side shoots and replant them, but I had the curling before that, I noticed it while replanting last night.

Kh and Gh are supposed to be stable - switched from tap to RO, GH has been set to 5 (but my substrate is creeping it up) and I was doing WC with 0kh just to get it down and now that it has hit a 1kh I am adding KH booster just to keep it around a 2 or 3.
Things should be the same from here on out, just an awkward transition, co2 is higher than before now too with the ISTA reactor.

Something's just WRONG with my tank lol, I always have weird stuff going on with the plants, ever since I started EI its been weird.
I miss the days when my Rotala Rotundifolia looked like this..


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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:32 PM
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Hi @Chlorophile,

To summarize, your dGH is 5.0 out of the RO/DI unit.

You are adding sufficient Seachem Equilibrium to increase the dGH by 2.0 degrees to [email protected] I am assuming that you have checked your dGH recently.

You are correct, the leaf margins turning under (cupping) downward is an indication of a specific nutrient deficiency, although some species the leaf margins will 'cup' upwards. You didn't indicate if other species are showing the issue or not, sometimes I notice an issue on one species but when I look in my tank other species are also showing similar symptoms but maybe not as dramatically. But sometimes just one species will show a symptom and other species do not. Why? My believe is each species has evolved to the conditions in their habitat and habitats vary a lot around the world.

Along with the rolling / cupping leaf margins here is a portion of one of your pictures that caught my attention. Notice first it is an older leaf. Secondly @ arrow #1 there is chlorosis (yellowing) along the leaf margin that progresses to necrosis (dead tissure). @ arrow #2 we have interveinal holes (holes between the veins) where necrosis has caused dead tissue. Does this describe some of the symptoms you are seeing?

Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:39 PM
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Can anything induce P deficiency?
P can induce Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn deficiency.
Cl and Zn can induce P deficiency.


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Last edited by Edward; 02-18-2018 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Clarification
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @Chlorophile,

To summarize, your dGH is 5.0 out of the RO/DI unit.

You are adding sufficient Seachem Equilibrium to increase the dGH by 2.0 degrees to [email protected] I am assuming that you have checked your dGH recently.

You are correct, the leaf margins turning under (cupping) downward is an indication of a specific nutrient deficiency, although some species the leaf margins will 'cup' upwards. You didn't indicate if other species are showing the issue or not, sometimes I notice an issue on one species but when I look in my tank other species are also showing similar symptoms but maybe not as dramatically. But sometimes just one species will show a symptom and other species do not. Why? My believe is each species has evolved to the conditions in their habitat and habitats vary a lot around the world.

Along with the rolling / cupping leaf margins here is a portion of one of your pictures that caught my attention. Notice first it is an older leaf. Secondly @ arrow #1 there is chlorosis (yellowing) along the leaf margin that progresses to necrosis (dead tissure). @ arrow #2 we have interveinal holes (holes between the veins) where necrosis has caused dead tissue. Does this describe some of the symptoms you are seeing?
RO/DI water comes out a 0dGH but I add Equilibrium to get it up to a 5, and then my shrimp sand contains a calcium mineral "montmorillonite" and so water that goes into the tank tends to go up by 2gh
I do check the GH before and after every water change, as well as the GH of the water in my RO holding tank so I'm fairly sure of these levels.

I am afraid I may have confirmation bias as I have been wondering about a few things.
Yes the plant did have some necrosis but I wasn't sure if it was a creature eating it or not.
Equilibrium has quite a LOT of K if you ask me and I also added K2CO3 on my last water change to get kh 2-3, and I also add k2so4 as part of EI dosing.

Equilibrium also is only 4:1 ratio to Magnesium, plus the substrate and I have both a lot more Calcium than MG.
So the part you quoted of high Calcium or K inhibiting Magnesium seems possible to me, I want to believe it but have to be cautious about believing what we want to be true lol.

I have loss of older leaves on some other plants but it could be more light/co2 related on the others.

if I have 7dGH in the tank, but only magnesium from equilibrium, something like 7ppm if I am remembering correctly, that seems kinda off.


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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 10:49 PM
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Hi @Chlorophile,


With regards to phosphorus (P) excess or phosphorus (P) deficiency I can offer this:

Quote:
There are no known reports of H2PO4-1 toxicity; however, plants may take up the phosphate anion in luxury amounts. Phosphorus excess is associated with impeded uptake and possible deficiency of copper and sometimes of zinc... phosphorous excess
Quote:
D. Leaf chlorosis is not the dominant symptom. Symptoms appear on older leaves at base of plant.

1. Plant dark green

a. At first, all leaves are dark green and growth is stunted. Purple pigment often develops in older leaves, particularly on the underside of the leaf along the veins...Leaves drop early... phosphorous deficiency

Phosphorus deficiency is not readily identified by visual symptoms alone. Visual symptoms of phosphorus deficiency are not always definite, but many phosphorus deficient plants exhibit off-color green foliage with purple venation, especially on the underside of leaves, and plants are stunted and remain stunted even when fertilizers supplying potassium and nitrogen are applied. Older leaves assume a purple-bronze color. Small growth, especially root development; spindly growth with tips of older leaves often dead. Phosphorus is phloem retranslocated from older leaves to new growth.

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 02-18-2018, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
RO/DI water comes out a 0dGH but I add Equilibrium to get it up to a 5, and then my shrimp sand contains a calcium mineral "montmorillonite" and so water that goes into the tank tends to go up by 2gh
I do check the GH before and after every water change, as well as the GH of the water in my RO holding tank so I'm fairly sure of these levels.

I am afraid I may have confirmation bias as I have been wondering about a few things.
Yes the plant did have some necrosis but I wasn't sure if it was a creature eating it or not.
Equilibrium has quite a LOT of K if you ask me and I also added K2CO3 on my last water change to get kh 2-3, and I also add k2so4 as part of EI dosing.

Equilibrium also is only 4:1 ratio to Magnesium, plus the substrate and I have both a lot more Calcium than MG.
So the part you quoted of high Calcium or K inhibiting Magnesium seems possible to me, I want to believe it but have to be cautious about believing what we want to be true lol.

I have loss of older leaves on some other plants but it could be more light/co2 related on the others.

if I have 7dGH in the tank, but only magnesium from equilibrium, something like 7ppm if I am remembering correctly, that seems kinda off.
Hi @Chlorophile,

You might try a 'reset' (although I understand shrimp are not big fans of water changes). Maybe just drop the additional K2SO4 to cut back on the potassium being dosed; have you considered baking soda to increase your dKH instead of the K2CO3 which also contains potassium?

I might suggest using the Equilibrium to bring your dGH up to maybe 3.0 dGH, add your add Montmorillonite for an additional 2.0 dGH, and then add some Epsom Salt (MgSO4 / the cheap stuff without additives) to increase the available magnesium (Mg) in your tank. I'd start with 1/4 teaspoon per 10 gallons which will add 3.3 ppm of Mg to your tank and only increase the dGH by abou 0.7 degrees. Then watch the new leaves that emerge after you start the increased Mg level. It looks like currently the 'cupping' is starting by the time 2 additional sets of new leaves have emerged so you should see improvement in a couple weeks or so. Keep us posted.

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