caracterization of seiyru stone on water parameters - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-02-2018, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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caracterization of seiyru stone on water parameters

Seiyru stone is gorgeous, no problem with that. But it alters the water parameters. In my tanks, i notice a TDS increase, and a GH increase. So the question is : by how much does it do that?

In order to answer that question, i'm devising an experiment to figure out that.
Here is the idea : i have a bunch of those rocks, that i'll weight. I'll also measure their volume.

Each rock will be placed in a definded quantity of water of known, measured parameters, in a plastic container.

For each container, i'll measure GH, KH and TDS (perhaps also pH?) and try to determine by what amount a given mass of seiyru stone
impacts a given volume of water. The idea is to get a metric, something like +X dGH/day for 1kg per 10L of water.

I'm trying to have in the most scientific manner, so i'll also have a control container with no stone in it, and seal the containers.

Do you see some flaws in this methodology? do you have some recomendation do make? ideas?
(obviously i'll update this post as the experiment goes)
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-05-2018, 03:51 AM Thread Starter
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Hello again, since there seems to be no obvious flaw in this experiment, i started preparing it.
So i want to test those hypothesis :
H1 - Seiyru stone impacts GH;
H2 - Seiyru stone impacts KH;
H3 - Seiyru stone impacts PH;
H4 - Seiyru stone impacts TDS/EC;
H5 - Seiyru stone impacts NO2;
H6 - Seiyru stone impacts NO3.

I believe that H1,H2,H3 and H4 are true, while H5 and H6 are false.
I'll try to prove or disprove theese hypotesis first (it should be quick).
Once this is done, we'll get as many data points to try to measure how much it impacts those parameters.

So now, let's prepare the experiment. For this, i took 3 identical plastic containers (only color changes), and filled them with 10L of tapwater each.
Then i took 3 seiyru stones, whose volumes and masses i measured :

rock R1

Rock R1 is 1000ml in volume, 2522g in mass.

rock R2

Rock R2 is 750ml in volume, 2228g in mass.

rock R3

Rock R3 is 500ml in volume, 1403g in mass.

Sadly, i have no easy way of measuring the rock surface area, so i can't provide this data.

All 3 rocks have been used in the same aquarium for 2-3 years, but have been dry for 2 months (so no living critters left, normally).

Control group is composed of two glass jars, each containing 200 ml of the same water as the larger containers; they won't recieve any rock.

All containers are in the same spot, in an air conditionned room (it runs all the time), and water have been gathered at the same time for all 5 containers, from the tap of my fishroom.

I'm letting the water in the containers for this night with nothing in it, and will start the experiment tomorrow monrning by introducing the rocks in the containers. I'm starting it tomorrow to have more data points in the early stages (just in case it changes quicker at start, rather than a linear progresion).

I'll keep you posted tomorrow, with the starting parameters.
For french readers, i wrote a more detailed article here on the experimental protocol (french).

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2018, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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Red face Starting the experiment

Hello again!
I started the experiment today, 2018/02/05 at 14:30:00, by immersing the 3 rocks in their respective containers.


I also tested the water parameters for each of the container, and also for the control groups :


So here are the initial parameters for all the containers :

R1
  • GH : 0-1
  • KH : 0
  • PH : 7
  • TDS : 43
  • No2 : <0.3mg/l
  • No3 : <0.5mg/l
R2
  • GH : 0-1
  • KH : 0
  • PH : 7
  • TDS : 42
  • No2 : <0.3mg/l
  • No3 : <0.5mg/l


R3
  • GH : 0-1
  • KH : 0
  • PH : 7
  • TDS : 42
  • No2 : <0.3mg/l
  • No3 : <0.5mg/l
C1
  • GH : 0-1
  • KH : 0
  • PH : 7
  • TDS : 43
  • No2 : <0.3mg/l
  • No3 : <0.5mg/l
C2
  • GH : 0-1
  • KH : 0
  • PH : 7
  • TDS : 42
  • No2 : <0.3mg/l
  • No3 : <0.5mg/l
When i tell you that i tested each container, here is the proof :


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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2018, 02:20 AM
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The only problem I see is that co2 will affect how the rocks leach. In neutral to basic water, there may be very little leaching. Get the pH down to low 6's though and that may change quite a bit.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2018, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeorges View Post
The only problem I see is that co2 will affect how the rocks leach. In neutral to basic water, there may be very little leaching. Get the pH down to low 6's though and that may change quite a bit.
Interesting!
Sadly, i have no Co2 test, and i have no Co2 systems to add here.
In my tanks, i saw those rocks rise the ph up to 8, but those were live tanks, with animals producing waste and CO2, also heavily planted so affecting co2 as well (although in the opposite way).
If for a long time i see no change, i'll stop this batch of tests, and start over with an acidic water (adding some ada soil to each container first, then either removing it or leaving it in place?) We'll have to determine the protocol at that time.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2018, 02:53 AM
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My first thought would be due to the way we often apply trade names to things which we see but those trade names are often not useful in fully describing the item. Do you have a "definition" that applies to something as loose as Seiyru stone?

It is my understanding that the original stone is now no longer available and much of what is marketed is simply eroded limestone and that description if often really loose to the extent that I can go out in my area and dig up what looks very much like Seiyru stone.

Can somebody define what exactly is different about Seiyru stone to make it highly prized? Wouldn't that pretty well blow up any test/experiment you are doing, if the subject item is not well defined?

This post might be of interest?
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8-...ryu-stone.html

Last edited by PlantedRich; 02-06-2018 at 03:15 AM. Reason: add link
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-06-2018, 09:52 AM
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Adding muriatic acid or acetic acid to the water will function pretty much as CO2 for this purpose, lowering the pH and consuming the rock. These Acids are much more quantifiable then Aquasoil in their ability to lower the pH.

You are right, surface area is what really counts for this experiment, mass comes second.

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 04:42 AM Thread Starter
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Hello all!
After one day, TDS is slowly rising, from 41-42 in all containers to 52,52 and 51 for R1,R2 and R3, whereas controls rose less : C1 went from 42 to 45 and C2 from 41 to 44.
GH went in R1,R2 and R3 from 0-1 to 2, and KH from 0 to 2.

So an impact quiclky appears, however, we'll se how fast it keeps rising.
Those measurement were after 28h of experiment.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-07-2018, 09:19 AM
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Interesting that the controls also increased their TDS. What does this say about dosing based on TDS, I wonder.
Quagulator and Quagulator like this.

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-10-2018, 05:09 AM
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Following with interest...Thanks!
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-10-2018, 05:57 PM
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Did we remember to seal the containers? Evaporation will always increase TDS/GH/KH/etc.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-16-2018, 03:35 AM Thread Starter
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Hello everyone!
The experiment is still going on; i have done many tests (ph, gh, kh, no3, no2, TDS) on the 3 experimental subjects, and less often on the control groups.

And yes, i cover the water containers each time after a measure.

So far, GH and KH remained at 0 for the control group, whereas it rose to 3 for all test subjects.
The smallest rock took more time to reach 3 in both KH and GH, but did it.

The two larger rocks behave mostly the same, and the 750g rock even has a higher TDS than the 1000g one, indicating that surface area is probably more important than weight.

TDS almost doubled for the larger rocks, and increased a bit less for the smallest one.

The control groups TDS rose slightly (aproximately 10%), then stayed at the same level since then.

However, for all the subjects and the controls, PH rose to 8. So i can't tell anything conclusive about PH for now.

On NO3 and No2, no impact whatsoever for now, all readings remained at the lowest value (we note it as 0, in this case 0 means less than the minimal value than can de detected by the tests). It remained at this floor value for both the subjects and the controls. This was expected, and we expect it to remain the same. However, after some time, we won't be able to guarantee that potential NO3 or NO2 won't be from the water cycling, and bacteria appearing. I did not put any organic matter in the tanks, but i can't guarantee the absence of it. However, the absence of variation early on seem to confirm the lack of impact on NO3 and NO2.

As for PH and KH, we seem to have an obvious effect, the question is now how much will it increase?

However, as PH rose, it is possible that the rock won't be corroded anymore, and the values may plateau now.

We'll se about that.
However, i'm already considering the next batches of the experiment:
- one batch with lower ph;
- one batch with higher GH/KH to see if the rock impact it by raising it of X points, or raising it TO a value of Y.

I think that lower ph increases the effect, and that will be put to the test.

Obviously, i'll post all the data later on; with all the measures , dates, etc.

When i have some time, i will plot a nice curve to help visualize the effect.

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caracterization, impact, seiyru stones, water hardness, water parameters

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