CSM+B new dosing Vs Older one - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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CSM+B new dosing Vs Older one

anyone still dosing the older version of csm+b based on Rotala Calc? which is 0.5 Fe proxy vs 0.2 Fe Proxy of csm+b 2-4x week. adding up to 2 ppm fe csm+b vs 0.8 weekly, i was wondering if anyone had any issue with the previous 0.5 ppm 2-4x weekly dose with shrimps, fish, plant etc. i already had my bad experience with it, but was wondering if anyone else had issue. i request barr to answer me why he have made the change recently or few months ago to 0.2 ppm proxy for csm+b.
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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 03:22 AM
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I only have plants and saw no real I'll effects of dosing both ways. Now I don't even measure. Just throw in pinches to the sump when I notice more parish whitish centers...


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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 12:25 PM
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Still not real clear on the portion change. I use the "old" PPS-P ratio 40 g in 500ml and dose 1ml/10gal.
When I purchase the dry ingredients, I ask them to shake up the mix and when I spoon out the material I shake up the bag for uniformity.
Might be that I am not growing allot of stem plants? I really don't understand the change.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 12:37 PM
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@Edward changed the official pps-p dose from .1 Fe daily to .01 a year or two ago, during the height of the great micro-tox debate. As for why exactly, you'd have to ask him.

As for EI going from .5 to .2, Barr didnt so much decide to do that, but more agreed that it would be OK. This also came as a result of much debate (and bloodshed) over the whole micro-tox thing.

The final discussion where it came about is several several pages back in @fablau 's journal over there. If anyone cares to look. At least I believe that's where it is iirc

https://barrreport.com/threads/fabla....14097/page-23

As far as I know rotalabutterfly is the only calculator that has it .2. EI hasnt changed, its always been 'estimative'. Adjusting the calculator was more for beginners just starting out. If you want to calculate for .5 just select "dose to reach a target" and enter .5, or whatever ppm you want. Calculating for EI is just the default setting.


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Last edited by burr740; 12-27-2017 at 10:09 PM. Reason: .
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
@Edward changed the official pps-p dose from .1 Fe daily to .01 a year or two ago, during the height of the great micro-tox debate. As for why exactly, you'd have to ask him
Aquatic plant fertilizers are made of macro and micro nutrients. Macro nutrients can be maintained by water changes when overdosed. However, this is not so easy with micro nutrients.

Micro nutrients are complex. Yes, plants can accept wider concentration ranges but are tricky to supply and maintain. Bioavailability, toxicity, ratios and interactions are the issues involved. Overdosing can cause irreversible damage to plants and to substrates. If we think about it, doubling growth rate requires 10x more fertilizer. This is not about the cost of the fertilizer this is about the complications involved. Is it worth it?

Here is something that may help. There is this fertilizer recipe used for very long time to grow a lot of cannabis. Cannabis is closer to our aquatic plants than tomatoes, I hope you agree. The fertilizer supplies 0.1 ppm of PO4 and 0.0028 ppm TE(Fe) by ratio. Planted aquariums daily uptake is usually ~ 0.1-0.3 ppm of PO4. Cannabis with this fertilizer is enjoying 1000W MH lights and injected CO2.

I think, PPS daily dosing of 0.01 ppm TE(Fe) should be sufficient. It has been adequate for many aquarists. Some conditions may require higher dosage, if so, give it a try. There is more information about this topic here: https://sites.google.com/site/aquati...e-too-low-high

Thank you
Edward
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
@Edward changed the official pps-p dose from .1 Fe daily to .01 a year or two ago, during the height of the great micro-tox debate. As for why exactly, you'd have to ask him.

As for EI going from .5 to .2, Barr didnt so much decide to do that, but more agreed that it would be OK. This also came as a result of much debate (and bloodshed) over the whole micro-tox thing.

The final discussion where it came about is several several pages back in @fablau 's journal over there. If anyone cares to look. At least I believe that's where it is iirc

https://barrreport.com/threads/fabla....14097/page-23

As far as I know rotalabutterfly is the only calculator that has it .2. EI hasnt changed, its always been 'estimative'. Adjusting the calculator was more for beginners just starting out. If you want to calculate for .05 just select "dose to reach a target" and enter .05, or whatever ppm you want. Calculating for EI is just the default setting.
i have asked barr, he said its because the calc guy decided to use whatever numbers, but that doesn't make any sense, as he is the author of the Ei and it should be correctly added to the calc and any mistake should be corrected immediately, 100s of thousands of people make their recipe or use that calc for their planted tank on daily, i asked him to change it back to 0.5 3-4x week and have people report back the results in few months if there is no issue as he have always said, there is no issue with dosing even 0.5 ppm Csm 3-4x week, this is what i am looking forward to see because i followed that calc for many years and had many issues, i cannot take barr word saying its ok to dose that too, when he himself never used this number, instead he used 0.2 3x week the whole time, there is a huge gap in numbers, i also notice Barr talks about his tank showing no toxicity etc, bragging about it but failed to understand the difference between the dose he use and what other might have been using based on that calc.
no disrespect to barr

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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 07:05 PM
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...
no disrespect to barr
After you bash him, I guess that makes it OK.
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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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After you bash him, I guess that makes it OK.
going based on his responses to my questions, that's what i have exactly written, if you consider that bashing, then i guess it is. don't worry we bash each other quite often, in other word debating.

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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward View Post
Aquatic plant fertilizers are made of macro and micro nutrients. Macro nutrients can be maintained by water changes when overdosed. However, this is not so easy with micro nutrients.

Micro nutrients are complex. Yes, plants can accept wider concentration ranges but are tricky to supply and maintain. Bioavailability, toxicity, ratios and interactions are the issues involved. Overdosing can cause irreversible damage to plants and to substrates. If we think about it, doubling growth rate requires 10x more fertilizer. This is not about the cost of the fertilizer this is about the complications involved. Is it worth it?

Here is something that may help. There is this fertilizer recipe used for very long time to grow a lot of cannabis. Cannabis is closer to our aquatic plants than tomatoes, I hope you agree. The fertilizer supplies 0.1 ppm of PO4 and 0.0028 ppm TE(Fe) by ratio. Planted aquariums daily uptake is usually ~ 0.1-0.3 ppm of PO4. Cannabis with this fertilizer is enjoying 1000W MH lights and injected CO2.

I think, PPS daily dosing of 0.01 ppm TE(Fe) should be sufficient. It has been adequate for many aquarists. Some conditions may require higher dosage, if so, give it a try. There is more information about this topic here: https://sites.google.com/site/aquati...e-too-low-high

Thank you
Edward
Thanks for the info.

Hopefully it didnt sound like I was saying its a good or a bad thing. I was just explaining to user @king kong why he might've noticed two different doses listed, depending on where he looks, because I'd seen him ask the question a few times lately.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-27-2017, 11:07 PM
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Macros can be flushed while Micros may not. If that is the case I had better cut down my TE's as noted in new info and see if the plants still hold true. I have very slow growing C nurii that take a month to grow one leaf. It would be very upsetting to burn/melt the plant after all the efforts. I am starting to get the big picture here. Thanks
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 12-28-2017, 12:52 AM
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Oh now I see where ur going. This gonna be a good post. Subscribed...i see yo motive now hehehe

In proving barr wrong on his co2 studies as well your toxicity studies, you must be prepared to take the onslaught of minions as well...

I think you can do it happy with all your experimentations...People don't see all the behind work you do..


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Last edited by StrungOut; 12-28-2017 at 01:08 AM. Reason: added on to ti
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