The Custom Micro Mix Thread - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 10:16 AM
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Great post @acino Thanks for sharing!

That is very interesting what you observed from Cu. I wasnt adding any either when I first started doing this

I'd had the 75's tank water tested a couple years ago and it showed 17 ppb. At the time I was adding about 3 ppb per week from csmb. So it's probably safe to assume my tap has around 10 at least.

But then I figured to make sure all bases were covered might as well add a dash just in case. I may try going without it again and see what happens.


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post #32 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 10:22 AM
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Great post @acino Thanks for sharing!

That is very interesting what you observed from Cu. I wasnt adding any either when I first started doing this

I'd had the 75's tank water tested a couple years ago and it showed 17 ppb. At the time I was adding about 3 ppb per week from csmb. So it's probably safe to assume my tap has around 10 at least.

But then I figured to make sure all bases were covered might as well add a dash just in case. I may try going without it again and see what happens.
I would like to reproduce my observations somewhere along the way to make sure it was not just a coincidence. At the moment, I don't have to balls to do it though, since finally everything is growing okayish after a long time. Interesting thing is, Cu levels may also vary for cold and warm water too. At least here, Cu boilers are (or used to be?) sometimes used to heat up the water which results in elevated Cu levels. I intend to check that too.

I am also experiencing massive uptake of nitrogen (>50 ppm NO3/week, mediumish light and no super fast growers), which I suspect might be due to bacterial denitrification, but I have to figure out what is causing this. That is another story though.
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Last edited by acino; 12-18-2017 at 10:56 AM. Reason: my poor English
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post #33 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 11:16 AM
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It would be nice if you guys share close up pics of certain plants under certain dosing, I found certain plant to show results differently when certain ratio were used, Rotala wallichi being very picky one. Far as my recipe goes I don't stick with just one as I change them for experimental reasons, but I do use similar to what TPN use, I further modify if anything needed to be changed. In our experiment it also shows that plant had better growth with urea/NH4,it would be wise to add little bit of Ni if one want to make a better mix and decided to use urea, somewhere between 0.000001-0.0001 Ni is a good start.
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post #34 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 11:30 AM
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just so I understand please dosing methods you use with custom Micros.
Adding EI with measured dry by volume?
Adding PPS-PRO measured by weight then added to dose bottles?
What is EDTA
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post #35 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by happi View Post
It would be nice if you guys share close up pics of certain plants under certain dosing, I found certain plant to show results differently when certain ratio were used, Rotala wallichi being very picky one. Far as my recipe goes I don't stick with just one as I change them for experimental reasons, but I do use similar to what TPN use, I further modify if anything needed to be changed. In our experiment it also shows that plant had better growth with urea/NH4,it would be wise to add little bit of Ni if one want to make a better mix and decided to use urea, somewhere between 0.000001-0.0001 Ni is a good start.
Lots of close up pics in my journal. Id be interested to see some of yours.


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post #36 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 12:16 PM
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just so I understand please dosing methods you use with custom Micros.
Adding EI with measured dry by volume?
Adding PPS-PRO measured by weight then added to dose bottles?
What is EDTA
Most in this thread are using a routine that is structurally similar to EI as far as dosing macros one day and micros the next, along with weekly 50% water changes.

If you're doing PPS-P measuring by weight, then you're dosing PPS-P amounts of everything. It has its own structure as far as dosing frequency and water changes

These custom blends target specific ppms of everything. One of the points of the thread is determining how much of everything is best. Currently everyone is basing their mix on several things like available research, whats in commercial products or what somebody else is doing, and/or lots of trial and error.

EDTA is a chelator that is used in csmb and many other brand name fertilizers
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post #37 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 12:32 PM
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Very good. So CSM+B Plantex mixes their product with measured dry ingredients to meet their analysis target. I then add 40g to 500 ml of H2O dosing bottle then 1ml/10 g
When one wants to mix a custom Micro mix, how are you measuring your ingredients 1? And in what form are you delivering the mix to the tank 2?
Thanks__
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post #38 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 12:43 PM Thread Starter
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As far as the hobby goes thats really all we have when it comes to the whole micro debate. Still so many unknowns how various compounds behave and interact under various conditions. Anyone who pretends to know it all is either delusional or just plain full of crap.
Burr excellent post. Like usual, I needed to read it several times over to catch everything.

And well spoken true words above. As for me, much of this makes me realize how little I know, and to appreciate those who are willing to share. Very interesting stuff discussed here.
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post #39 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Lots of close up pics in my journal. Id be interested to see some of yours.
i hope you are not assuming that am targeting you or something, that's not what am trying to do, am actually very happy we have some members now who are doing these kind of experiments including you, this is great for our hobby. i like to see pictures as a results of certain changes that you make and most of them looks positive so far. the question is are other people able to obtain the same results as water parameter will play very important role as well. as i see you add Cl, Na etc as well, this also have positive results on plants as well, but most people might not be adding these elements, like i said they also play an important role and too much of them can be bad as well. i also notice you dose urea as well, is there is reason you have decided to use urea? if KNo3 is good enough? i have tons of picture but am not sure if i could fit them all here at once, but i have one of my old thread where i have shared some pictures: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33...periments.html

i have successfully used the TPN based recipe in all the test but there was still some room for improvement, B and Zn deficiency was quite common in my case. are you reading Marcel data as well? i have a feeling you might be.

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post #40 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by king kong View Post
Very good. So CSM+B Plantex mixes their product with measured dry ingredients to meet their analysis target. I then add 40g to 500 ml of H2O dosing bottle then 1ml/10 g
When one wants to mix a custom Micro mix, how are you measuring your ingredients 1? And in what form are you delivering the mix to the tank 2?
Thanks__
You might benefit from using this calculator: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator.

It should help you in determining mixes and dosing.
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post #41 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
You might benefit from using this calculator: Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator.

It should help you in determining mixes and dosing.


Very good. Just looking back to Greenleaf's site for info where I purchased Plantex. I see that they changed their dose of 500 ml Micro stock solution per 10 gallons...yikes
Now ....2 drops per 10 gallons
Then.....1 ml. per 10 gallons


Plus.... was 40g Plantex per 500 ml stock solution

Now 28.6g per 500 ml stock solution

can you say hand me the siphon tube? Good Heavens....
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post #42 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 04:28 PM
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i hope you are not assuming that am targeting you or something, that's not what am trying to do, am actually very happy we have some members now who are doing these kind of experiments including you, this is great for our hobby. i like to see pictures as a results of certain changes that you make and most of them looks positive so far. the question is are other people able to obtain the same results as water parameter will play very important role as well. as i see you add Cl, Na etc as well, this also have positive results on plants as well, but most people might not be adding these elements, like i said they also play an important role and too much of them can be bad as well. i also notice you dose urea as well, is there is reason you have decided to use urea? if KNo3 is good enough? i have tons of picture but am not sure if i could fit them all here at once, but i have one of my old thread where i have shared some pictures: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33...periments.html
Not at all, I was expressing my genuine interest in seeing some of your pictures, good or bad, what you think caused something etc.

I know a few times specifically you've asked folks to show you close ups of the bottom parts of plants. My journal has quite a few and there's usually a fert routine somewhere in the neighborhood.

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are you reading Marcel data as well? i have a feeling you might be.
Marcels data doesnt transfer well when applied to a real world tank (neither does Marschner ratio)

Besides that, unless he's recently changed sources, Marcel uses Tenso which is edta based. That is entirely irrelevant to what folks are doing here.

This thread is to compile data and experiences from people who are using non-chelated compounds and other sources of Fe.
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post #43 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 06:00 PM
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Not at all, I was expressing my genuine interest in seeing some of your pictures, good or bad, what you think caused something etc.

I know a few times specifically you've asked folks to show you close ups of the bottom parts of plants. My journal has quite a few and there's usually a fert routine somewhere in the neighborhood.



Marcels data doesnt transfer well when applied to a real world tank (neither does Marschner ratio)

Besides that, unless he's recently changed sources, Marcel uses Tenso which is edta based. That is entirely irrelevant to what folks are doing here.

This thread is to compile data and experiences from people who are using non-chelated compounds and other sources of Fe.
yes i understand what this thread is about and appreciate your and others effort, my goals are slightly different than your but if we could come up with better mix that is useful for everyone, then we are on the good journey here. Marcel data is quite interesting as we work closely sometime, am not going to say that we got 100% results but we were not that far from obtaining good results. in my own observation like i said before it would be almost impossible to make exact ratio for everyone to use unless they use pure RO water, water with 30 ppm Ca vs 10 ppm Ca might have different results using the same recipe for example. edta/dtpa isnt bad as you guys think, i understand its availability is bit slow, but its much safer than non chleated, i was able to melt my Tonnina plant simply by adding Znso4 and Boric acid individually, certain plant that looked Zn and B deficient did not recover simply by adding these two, they only recovered once i used the decent ratio and added all the other elements as well, this is clearly shown that ratio plays an very important role. the only thing i fear is buildup of certain things such as Boron if plant use all the other elements and some will get oxidized, as far as i know Boron doesn't oxidized. the reason i asked to show lower part of plants is that people are good at hiding it and only focus on what looks good on the top, normal healthy plant should look good from top to bottom, bottom part becoming deficient indicate something is either not available to plants or toxicity if you believe in that one.

i guess i can give your recipe a try, if it could help my rotala wallachi, then this will be considered very good recipe. is there anything you want to change to the current recipe that you think might be working even better? i could try that one instead. and i will try to post some pics for you guys when i have more time about my own experiments.

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post #44 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 06:00 PM Thread Starter
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Here's my current routine in the spreadsheet. Micros tend to get changed every couple of weeks but this has proven to be a pretty good default recipe. If I make a few tweaks and something doesnt work out I go back to something like this for a while (usually)

Burr I am really enjoying this thread if nothing else just to see information like this. It's really, really interesting stuff.

So it looks like you are dosing a little less than EI for N, and a little more than EI for P. Then you add what appears to be a very small amount of Urea.

So the N:P ratio for dosing EI is about 6:1, you are at about 3.5:1, and I am am closer to 2.5:1. You have given me food for thought. I have been dosing EI level of N, and elevated P, which seems to work best for me. I am going to try reducing both but keeping the same ratio and see if there is any difference.

And I can already see we need to add a field for the username and date. I can see myself wanting to save these spreadsheets for reference.
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Last edited by Greggz; 12-18-2017 at 10:45 PM. Reason: typo
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post #45 of 1425 (permalink) Old 12-18-2017, 06:19 PM
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Great to see that the majority of the experienced people in the hobby realized that micros are needed and not the devil. You still see questions pop up here and there of something having read the old posts. Just like they do with Ca deficiency, Ca:Mg ration, K toxicity, PO4=algae etc.

But why did the whole thing happened. Well the need to blame something other than ourselves is one. The other is random observations, no matter how honest should not be regarded as strong evidence for anything. I hope that people that wasted a year or so in struggling with low micros will be able to learn from this. It is also good that we tried a new thing, and now we know better how micronutrient deficiency looks like.

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Marcels data doesnt transfer well when applied to a real world tank (neither does Marschner ratio)
Maybe. The question is why? What other factors make the data not applicable ... see, now the fun stuff starts to happen.


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the other reason people wont try such a recipe is due to the cost and hassle, they prefer premixed stuff, this stuff is only good for those who want to play around with the chemicals, like we do. the other reason i dont post much is due to the fear of people using the recipe to make money.
I have to say I am puzzled by your decision not to share due to fear of people making money, with all due respect to your knowledge and contribution. Knowledge is useless if not put into practice. It is great that you invest time and effort into developing a perfect nutritional plan. And I respect that you do not want to share that knowledge for some sort of monetary gain. This is after all capitalism. So make a bottle and sell it. I would like to test your formulas. Tropica did this, Aqua Rebell (Tobias) did this etc.

Don't want to get commercial, that is also fine. Share it so the hobby can benefit just like it benefited from PMDD, PPS, EI etc. There are some like NilocG that sell the ready made mixed. People pay money for convenience and ease of use. I don't really find fault in that.

What if Burr or countless others were to say, we do not post photos of our plants or journals because we are afraid people will learn from us , our experience and mistakes and make money or win competitions ahead of us.

If people make money by growing healthy plants I think this hobby won something.

On hiatus till later this year
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