warning for osmocote peoples - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 2Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 09:16 PM
I ♥ BBA!
 
sewingalot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (112/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 12,768
I just finished crushing up some. I had to start over twice. Did you know osmocote can fly across the room at a incredibly high rate of speed if you hit it just right with a spoon? I put in 1/8 teaspoon in two 16.5 oz of tap water. I shook them up and am letting them sit for 30 minutes. One thing I noticed right away with the crushed ones is the water got cloudy immediately and a lot of the little coatings float.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sewingalot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 09:24 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by happi View Post
no i did not crush them to use them in my tank. my friend keep them in his filter and there is no problem in the water, however he does not crush them. slow release of nutrients in the water and his tank is low light no co2, its working fine for him.
This is a method I would not recommend. They will deplete very quickly. Osmocote is a product designed to be normally dry, sometimes wet. When wet all the time, it will release nutrients much quicker. NO where near the 6 month mark it would normally last.

I would suspect the nutrients are depleted after less than a few weeks when placed in the filter.

Sewingalot--is your test kit calibrated? that will help show people here results that are meaningful.

I have a huge pile of tests relating to this, but I am at work till tomorrow morning and don't want to misquote something until I can look at my notes.
OverStocked is offline  
post #18 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 10:18 PM
I ♥ BBA!
 
sewingalot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (112/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 12,768
Okay, here are the results from 30 minutes (approximately). Sorry it took so long to upload. I had to stop to take care of some dishes. Look at the mess in the background, lol.

Amount put into two of plastic bottles:


Crushing:


Left (tap water), Middle (crushed osmocote), Right (whole pieces):


Left (crushed), Middle (whole) Right (tap)


Closeups:


Crushed (I can't really tell - definitely darker than 1.0)


Whole (not 0, but not yet .25 - definitely has green tint):


Tap (0, yellow as yellow gets with this test):



So, I believe it could definitely be the result of the osmocote, Happi. I'll update the test results tomorrow after work if anyone is still interested and continue for a while if anyone cares, lol.

Overstock, not everyone is an expert on Osmocote, nor has a stake in this type of experiment like you. I have nothing to gain or loose. I'm just a hobbyist.

Tests done with API test kits, Canon point and shoot at auto everything with flash turned off.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by sewingalot; 12-05-2010 at 10:18 PM. Reason: double picture, oops
sewingalot is offline  
 
post #19 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 10:37 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Sharkfood's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Posts: 2,536
I've had those balls come up out of the substrate in my main tank before. Honestly, I never worried about it. I didn't remove them either. Then again I did get a small outbreak of staghorn a month or two back which could indicate there was detectable ammonia in the tank.

8ppm ammonia is insane. I'd think you'd be able to smell it in the room.

I throw osmocote right into my fluval chi fountain without bothering to bury it. There's no fauna in that tank though, other than pond snails. Pond snails just laugh at ammonia.

I'm glad you took the time to test Sewing. Honestly though, thats alot of osmocote in relatively little water. Still, measureable ammonia in only 30 minutes is something to think about.
Sharkfood is offline  
post #20 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 10:48 PM
I ♥ BBA!
 
sewingalot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (112/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 12,768
Yeah, its a lot of osmocote in comparison. I just make a decision on an amount. I can always repeat the test later on with less amounts of product. I just like to play around with test kits.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sewingalot is offline  
post #21 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 11:04 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by sewingalot View Post

Overstock, not everyone is an expert on Osmocote, nor has a stake in this type of experiment like you. I have nothing to gain or loose. I'm just a hobbyist.

Tests done with API test kits, Canon point and shoot at auto everything with flash turned off.




When I suggested I would show some results I had received in the past, I was only offering to show more results with several other variables(plants, etc).
They are similar in characteristics to your results, but the numbers are slightly different as they are done on different size samples(water and fertilizer) and done by a lab so that the levels are precise. I did all of this while looking for the best membrane product out there.

The trouble with the information provided by the OP is that we're missing some key info. Particularly, how long the fish were dead in the tank(an hour..., two, over night?) as they would contribute to a high amount of ammonia. If the membrane was not crushed, I do not see how you could get to 8ppm of ammonia in a tank with any plants in it--without having grossly overdosed.

Remember, our test kit tests for ammonia and ammonium, ammonium being the product likely released from the fertilizer membranes. Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia, especially in pH under 7.5. Plants uptake ammonium at a rather high rate, and ammonia at a pretty high, but not as fast of rate.

Discussion and experimentation by hobbyists is what moves this hobby forward. Taking the initiative to do this is great for the hobby.

Last edited by Momotaro; 12-06-2010 at 12:44 AM. Reason: ENOUGH! Way to argumentative!
OverStocked is offline  
post #22 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 11:08 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Quote:
Originally Posted by sewingalot View Post
Yeah, its a lot of osmocote in comparison. I just make a decision on an amount. I can always repeat the test later on with less amounts of product. I just like to play around with test kits.
Not as much as you might think! Tom Barr and HOppy both suggested putting layers of osmocote down as thick as 1/8 thick covering the entire bottom of a tank...
OverStocked is offline  
post #23 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 11:29 PM
I ♥ BBA!
 
sewingalot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (112/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 12,768
I have read the sticky on calibrating test kits. Been there, done that. If I want super accurate results, I'll pay some obscene amount of money to a lab and get it done there. This is just something I am doing for the fact I found it interesting.

What I am not really interested in is getting into a discussion over your product. If you want to discuss your product, find someone who wants to participate. I hate to be blunt, but I really don't care about what you are selling or if it is osmocote. Furthermore, if you were to decide to start selling pond snails and rename them Medic snails, I could care less. Your product has NOTHING to do with my simple little weekend experiment.

With that said, I will not discuss this further. Period.
Powerclown and Powerclown like this.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sewingalot is offline  
post #24 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 11:45 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 391
uhoh...this conversation again
anywhoo...

@OP...how big is your tank...and how many OS pellets are "some"
I use OC+ in my tank and have never had these type of problems...but I do put mine almost to the bottom glass pane...I have had some string algae appear for 1-2days...but never any noticeable amm. spikes (though I dont kno for sure because my fish never showed any distress symptoms, so I didnt test)

@Sewingalot
since OC is temp related...what temp are you testing at?

it is IMPOSSIBLE to find 1 person who regrets going pressurized

if you do it right, you can spend a lot of money in this hobby...of course, if you do it wrong - you'll spend A LOT more
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MrMoneybags is offline  
post #25 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-05-2010, 11:57 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Can you give us an idea of how much you put into your tank? That is something we haven't gotten a clear answer to, that I am seeing. How many of your diy capsules?

What do your tests look like now?

Assuming the water is not abnormally hot or abnormally cold, the temp is pretty minimal in significance. If the temp is higher than 90 or lower than 50, the results would only be faster or slower. The overall result would still be the same.
OverStocked is offline  
post #26 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2010, 12:06 AM
I ♥ BBA!
 
sewingalot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (112/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: WV
Posts: 12,768
The temperature is reading 70 from the tap and it is 72 in the house. So somewhere around this, Mrmoneybags. I didn't think to test the temperature. Good idea. I have read that temperature does cause it to break down at different rates.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
sewingalot is offline  
post #27 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2010, 12:55 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (21/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 3,115
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Quote:
Originally Posted by over_stocked View Post
When I suggested I would show some results I had received in the past, I was only offering to show more results with several other variables(plants, etc).
They are similar in characteristics to your results, but the numbers are slightly different as they are done on different size samples(water and fertilizer) and done by a lab so that the levels are precise. I did all of this while looking for the best membrane product out there.

The trouble with the information provided by the OP is that we're missing some key info. Particularly, how long the fish were dead in the tank(an hour..., two, over night?) as they would contribute to a high amount of ammonia. If the membrane was not crushed, I do not see how you could get to 8ppm of ammonia in a tank with any plants in it--without having grossly overdosed.

Remember, our test kit tests for ammonia and ammonium, ammonium being the product likely released from the fertilizer membranes. Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia, especially in pH under 7.5. Plants uptake ammonium at a rather high rate, and ammonia at a pretty high, but not as fast of rate.

Discussion and experimentation by hobbyists is what moves this hobby forward. Taking the initiative to do this is great for the hobby.
can you please explain the difference between ammonium and ammonia, this came to my mind also before you posted it but i thought they both were same. i wonder if ammonium is giving the results in the test kits, because most of my fishes seems fine since last 2 days, if ammonia was really at 8ppm am sure i would have lost almost all of them by now. if ammonium is toxic for fish, what levels are consider toxic. is it possible that test kits are seeing ammonium as ammonia?

i don't remember how much i added in my tank but it was no more than 1 cup in my 50g. but most of it is buried under sand substrate and there were few on the top here and there, but not much.

thanks for the test results
happi is offline  
post #28 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2010, 01:01 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 391
ammonia NH3 (neutral)
ammonium NH4+ (cation)

in general....soil is negatively charged...the cations (potassium, iron, ammonium...etc) "stick" to the faces of teh soil because of the charge

...plant roots give off a H+ ion to the soil face in exchange of the cation they want/need

also...they self regulate themselves
in an acidic solution (excess H+), theres less ammonia, more ammonium...but in a basic (low H+ concentration) theres more ammonia, less ammonium

it is IMPOSSIBLE to find 1 person who regrets going pressurized

if you do it right, you can spend a lot of money in this hobby...of course, if you do it wrong - you'll spend A LOT more
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
MrMoneybags is offline  
post #29 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2010, 01:07 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
OverStocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (76/94%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SoDak
Posts: 10,732
Ammonia is significantly more water soluble than ammonium, but as pH increases ammonia becomes more toxic. At lower pH, ammonia binds with HCL to form ammonium(I am shooting form the hip right now so I might not be sayhing this exactly right).

Ionized NH4(ammonium) is MUCH less harmful to aquatic life.

Here is an article that does a fairly good job of explaining this in terms simple enough even I can understand it... You should not have any problem...
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/Cro...JohnSawyer.htm


Worth noting:
Quote:
The laboratory method used for analysis of water measures ammonium-N plus ammonia-N. It is very difficult to directly determine the activity of aqueous ammonia, so instead the surrogate of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N is used, and then tabled values of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N are used to determine if a measured concentration will provide ammonia at a level that is detrimental to aquatic organisms, for acute and chronic conditions. These tabled values are a surrogate since the measured concentration is a total of the ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, and the concentrations in the tables for chronic or acute levels are set to reflect back to likely concentrations of ammonia-N for specific water pH and temperature.
A little more complicated, but addressing toxicity:
Quote:
The acute and chronic criteria for “ammonia” have been established for Iowa streams designated for aquatic life uses (Chapter 61, Iowa Administrative Code; tables 3a, 3b and 3c). One has to carefully use the tables as the listed concentrations are for ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, not ammonia-N (the header to the tables says “ammonia”). As expected, chronic criteria (ammonium-N plus ammonia-N concentration) are higher for low pH and low temperature water (ex. pH 6.5 at 0 degrees C is 6.67 mg N/l, early life stages present) and lower for high pH and high temperature water (ex. pH 8.0 and 26 degrees C is 1.16 mg N/l). Similarly, acute criteria are higher for low pH water (ex. at a pH of 6.5 the criteria for class B (WW1-3) and B(LW) is 48.8 mg N/l) and lower for high pH water (ex. at a pH of 8.0 is 8.4 mg N/l).
So... what does this all mean.... Lots...

I am very suspicious that something else contributed to the ammonia test reading. Certainly the osmocote could have contributed, but it seems like you did everything right. 1 cup is a lot, but if it is buried, it isn't that much. LIke I said, Tom Barr even suggests coating the entire bottom pain of glass with it... That is a lot!

Sorry for possibly over-complicating this, but with a little digging we can find some really useful info here. The tests sara did are very useful, as they show the difference in a few variables. One test I think she should compare is a cup full of the same water with the osmocote below a substrate. different substrates provide remarkably different results.
OverStocked is offline  
post #30 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-06-2010, 04:56 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (84/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 21,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by over_stocked View Post
Not as much as you might think! Tom Barr and HOppy both suggested putting layers of osmocote down as thick as 1/8 thick covering the entire bottom of a tank...
Not me! I suggested a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of the substrate, not an 1/8 inch of it, which I would call a huge amount. Now, I hope I'm right about that

I have a 8 gallon nanocube tank sitting right in front of me that was set up with a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of a layer of MTS, several weeks ago. No algae problem, no fish problems.

Hoppy
Hoppy is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome