I can’t tell which deficiencies this is… Ma, K, PO4, idk? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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I can’t tell which deficiencies this is… Ma, K, PO4, idk?

I’ve found a page on deficiency but I can’t Pinpoint which element I’m lacking. Yes I realize there is BBA and either bacteria or GSA at the front of my substrate, I’m handling it...



This is what I’m Dosing twice a week.
Co2 is at 28ppm




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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 11:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cdaJiv View Post
I’ve found a page on deficiency but I can’t Pinpoint which element I’m lacking. Yes I realize there is BBA and either bacteria or GSA at the front of my substrate, I’m handling it...



This is what I’m Dosing twice a week.
Co2 is at 28ppm




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So if new leaves have chlorosis it could be low iron, but I doubt that given what you're dosing...


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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
So if new leaves have chlorosis it could be low iron, but I doubt that given what you're dosing...
I agree it does look like chlorosis which would be an iron deficiency. The only iron you're dosing is from CSM+B right? What is your ph? As I mentioned in your other post this could be the same thing Burr740 was seeing in his tanks. The iron in CSM+B is EDTA. His thinking was that because of the higher ph in his tanks the EDTA essentially becomes useless. So despite dosing higher levels of CSM+B the plants weren't getting enough iron. Which is one of the reasons he switched to mixing his own micros, using a combination of dtpa iron and gluconate among other tweaks. When I had a similar issue I stopped using CSM+B, and switched to Flourish which uses gluconate, and supplemented with DTPA, and my problems started clearing up in a week or two. Like I said I'm not an expert in this stuff, but that's what worked for me.

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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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When other people dose EI using RotalaButterfly do people select,
“I AM CALCULATING FOR: Estimative Index”
or
“I AM CALCULATING FOR: Dose to reach a Target”


When I first started using RotalaButterfly’s Calculator to estimate my fertilizers that I would be dosing I put in all of my information (20g, DIY, Element, Dry Dosing...) and at the bottom when I select “I AM CALCULATING FOR:” I had been choosing Estimative Index…

Which gives me these target levels:
-NO3: 7.5 ppm
-PO4: 1.3 ppm
-K: 7.5 ppm
-Mg: 5 ppm
-Iron: 0.2 ppm

I decided to go though and select “DOSE TO REACH A TARGET” and put in these levels…
-NO3: 15 ppm
-PO4: 2.0 ppm
-K: 15 ppm
-Mg: 10 ppm
-Iron: 0.2 ppm

Do these new target ranges look safe for me to dose, I found these ranges on BarrReport at:
https://barrreport.com/threads/ei-light-for-those-less-techy-folks.2794/

My tank is a 20g Long with a Finnex Planted+ 24/7 SE that runs on 24/7 mode so seeing how my tank is only about 12” tall I can safely say that it’s High Lighting…

I was told I could dose CaNO3 in place of KNO3 so I wouldn’t have to dose Equilibrium (I used to dose but I run through it to fast having several tanks).


Quote:
Originally Posted by elusive77 View Post
I agree it does look like chlorosis which would be an iron deficiency. The only iron you're dosing is from CSM+B right? What is your ph? As I mentioned in your other post this could be the same thing Burr740 was seeing in his tanks. The iron in CSM+B is EDTA. His thinking was that because of the higher ph in his tanks the EDTA essentially becomes useless. So despite dosing higher levels of CSM+B the plants weren't getting enough iron. Which is one of the reasons he switched to mixing his own micros, using a combination of dtpa iron and gluconate among other tweaks. When I had a similar issue I stopped using CSM+B, and switched to Flourish which uses gluconate, and supplemented with DTPA, and my problems started clearing up in a week or two. Like I said I'm not an expert in this stuff, but that's what worked for me.

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My pH is a steady 6.5 in all my tanks I use very soft tap water and when I dose my ferts I also dose alkaline/acid Buffer at a 1:1.3 ratio to raise my KH from 2 to 4.8 and ph at 6.5... Yesterday I dosed Flourish Iron (0.1ppm) with my Plantex CSM+B (0.2ppm) which I did because I thought maybe the Fe in the Plantex wasn’t doing its job which should have came out to me dosing Fe 0.3 ppm…
I do not dose my Macros and Micros at the same time FYI.

I don’t know what EDTA and DTPA are or how they are applied, I did look them up on google so I kinda have an idea of what they are but still do not understand...

When you say you switched to Flourish do you mean regular Flourish or Flourish Iron?









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Oh man I hope this isn’t my problem...

I found this thread: ( https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/#/topics/503585)

Quote:
Originally Posted by happi View Post
Toxicity of CSM+B


First of all let me start by saying that csm+b can become very toxic to plants when overdosed, the effect is so bad that it would burn your plants while making you believe that you are suffering from other deficiencies, however it is also true that some plants will respond to the toxicity more than the others and some might not respond to it at all, Plants like HC will show such an effect where leaves would start to suddenly disappear.
I would like to share a story about HC plant, every time I tried this plant it would suddenly start to disappear, I tried it so many time till now and I simply couldn’t grow it, on the other hand I can grow Erio which supposed to be harder to grow, the culprit was too much CSM+B, I had all the other nutrients, co2, lights at unlimited levels.

Many people here overdose the csm+b very easily while trying to keep the Fe level high, even too much Fe isn’t good either but we will talk about that later. Some people who think dosing more csm+b brings out more reds in their plants are only making things worse, if you are overdosing with Csm+b to get the Fe levels up then you will get a toxic levels which look exactly like Fe deficiency, that is because Fe toxicity seems to damage the sulfur uptake mechanism and sulfur deficiency looks similar to iron deficiency, it also depend on what kind of iron chelate you are using, iron gluconate doesn’t last in the water for long time and toxicity from this cheleate is less likely to occur even in high doses around 1 ppm, toxicity from other chelate iron such as EDTA, DTPA poses higher risk. Next time you dose CSM+b watch out for overdosing it.

Could this be my problem, that I am overdosing my tank when it comes to Plantex CSM+B???

I have been Dosing 232mg of CSM+B the calculator told me that was the correct amount to dose 2-4 times per week in order to keep Fe at 0.2ppm… I thought it seemed like a little much but then again what do I know about these things. Idiot!

Do you this this is what is happening in my tank from what you can see in the photos?

If so… Elusive77 could you or anyone else help me possibly find an alternative routine to dose my Macros sufficiently and succesfully?
I have thought about Dosing Iron when fertilizing because it states that it is ferrous iron gluconate supplement which I think means I do not have to worry about it bonding with my other ferts and it is Fe+2 instead of CSM+B which I think might have Fe+3 making it harder for my plants to absorb...? (Can somebody fact check this please?)
How would I dose my other Micros, will Regular Flourish do that and can I dose Flourish Iron together?

Last edited by Darkblade48; 11-16-2017 at 12:49 PM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by cdaJiv View Post
Idiot!
Bleh!.... I would say this is not true. Looks like you have thought this out completely and researched it well. Someone mentioned burr740's tank. Almost his whole thread is about how he has wrestled with his nutrients. He did a great job and you are doing the same thing. It's always not so straight forward. Trust me, I'm not one of the experts on all this.

I would dose your macros and CSM+B 3 times a week the amount you have been dosing them. Then add some additional iron and see how that does.

You have some iron gluconate? It is a great source of iron but.... The problem with it is at higher pHs it will precipitate with phosphorus and turn your water white. You have stated that your pH is 6.5. That should be OK, but I assume that is you pH only after your CO2 has been on awhile. So only dose it when your pH is down to that level. Also iron gluconate doesn't hang around long. I've read that it breaks down quickly, and I've read that it is absorbed quickly. Whichever... but for now you have a deficiency, so maybe dose it every other day. You should be able to tell if it is working in a couple weeks.

Again, I am not one of the experts here, but there is a place for you to start. I think the important thing is to stick with a plan consistently for a couple weeks before you make more changes. Also do those EI 50% water changes.

Good Luck!!

Last edited by Ben Belton; 11-18-2017 at 05:19 PM. Reason: gramma correction
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-18-2017, 04:20 PM
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Hi cda.Jiv,

Since is it the younger leaves exhibiting the deficiency it is likely one of the mobile nutrients. The common mobile nutrients are: nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, and iron. Interveinal chlorosis is a symptom of both magnesium and iron deficiencies. If it is older leaves showing the interveinal chlorosis then it is likely a magnesium deficiency, if newer leaves then likely iron. In this case it definitely looks to be an iron deficiency: new leaves / interveinal chlorosis.

Now why? I don't necessarily believe in "absolutes". I don't believe that 0.2ppm of Fe is adequate for all plants. It may be fine for some species but since each species in my tank evolved over millennium to exist in different ecosystems and water conditions I would be foolish to believe that 'one number fits all' when it comes to ppm levels of any of the nutrients that I dose.

All that said is 0.2 ppm adequate for your plants? The symptoms say no but one thing that was posted caught my eye:
Quote:
when I dose my ferts I also dose alkaline/acid Buffer at a 1:1.3 ratio to raise my KH from 2 to 4.8 and ph at 6.5...
Since CSM+B is chelated with EDTA which is probably the most PH sensitive chelate; dosing the CSM+B at the same time as your alkaline/acid buffer may be affecting the iron availability. I am assuming that you are not dosing your micros and macros at the same time.

You could try dosing your micros at a different time than the alkaline/acid buffers and see if there is any change. Since the deficiency shows up in the newer leaves it should only take a week or so to see if the change makes any difference. If changing the dosing schedule doesn't improve the symptoms, then I would increase my iron dosing gradually until the new leaves no longer show the interveinal chlorosis. I too have very, very soft water (<2.0 dGH) and I dose both CSM+B and ferrous gluconate (same as Seachem Flourish Iron) as my iron sources and most of my tanks require about 0.5ppm of Fe 2X per week to avoid the issue your plants are exhibiting.

Quote:
Quote:
Terminal bud remaining alive. Symptoms on new growth.

1. Interveinal chlorosis on young leaves.

a. Interveinal chlorosis on young leaves with larger veins only remaining green. Necrotic spots usually absent; however, with extreme deficiencies, young leaves are almost white and may have necrotic margins and tips; necrotic spots may extend inward. potassium, zinc or copper excess can inhibit uptake of iron. High pH may also induce iron deficiency....iron deficiency

Iron deficiency symptoms are similar to those of magnesium deficiency, but iron deficiencies occur in young leaves first: Iron accumulated in older leaves is relatively immobile in the phloem.

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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2017, 06:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys, made the adjustments just watching for results.


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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-24-2017, 09:03 PM
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Your calcium nitrate dose is7.5 NO3. But the calcium part is only 2.42ppm.
Your Magnesium dose is 5ppm and your sulfur is 6.6ppm.

based on the amount of nutrients found in plants you should have at least 2 times more calcium than magnesium. You are about 2 times more magnesium than calcium. It is possible that your are occasionally short on calcium / magnesium or both. Most GH boosters have Ca/Mg ratio of 3/1 or 4/1.

Normally I recommend 2 degrees GH above your tap water. 1 degree is about 17ppm So 2DGH is 34 ppm. Now you could up your nitrate dose to increase the calcium but it is generally recommended to keep nitrate at or below 20ppm. So you cannot get the calcium up high enough using this methode. However if you add some calcium sulfate you can get the calcium up higher but that would put you up on sulfur. I believe going high on sulfur would be safe. You could also drop the potassium sulfate and and replace it with potassium chloride (this is safe) or use potassium nitrate and calcium sulfate.

Last edited by Surf; 11-24-2017 at 09:08 PM. Reason: formating
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 11-28-2017, 04:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf View Post
Your calcium nitrate dose is7.5 NO3. But the calcium part is only 2.42ppm.
Your Magnesium dose is 5ppm and your sulfur is 6.6ppm.

based on the amount of nutrients found in plants you should have at least 2 times more calcium than magnesium. You are about 2 times more magnesium than calcium. It is possible that your are occasionally short on calcium / magnesium or both. Most GH boosters have Ca/Mg ratio of 3/1 or 4/1.

Normally I recommend 2 degrees GH above your tap water. 1 degree is about 17ppm So 2DGH is 34 ppm. Now you could up your nitrate dose to increase the calcium but it is generally recommended to keep nitrate at or below 20ppm. So you cannot get the calcium up high enough using this methode. However if you add some calcium sulfate you can get the calcium up higher but that would put you up on sulfur. I believe going high on sulfur would be safe. You could also drop the potassium sulfate and and replace it with potassium chloride (this is safe) or use potassium nitrate and calcium sulfate.

So would I replace CaNO3 with KNO3 & CaSO4…
and replace K2SO4 with Potassium Chloride?

I already have KNO3, but I started using CaNO3 (purchased later) because the previous regimen didn’t include calcium and dosing Equilibrium even once a week for 75~ish Gallons gets expensive.

(The elements that I originally purchased [GLA PPS Pro Kit]: KNO3, KH2PO4, K2SO4, MgSO4)…

So what is the preferred EI ferts used by you guys? I imagine that yall are successfully dosing NPK as well as Mg and Ca at the correct ratios, right?



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I ask because I’m looking to purchase additional ferts ie: Potassium chloride, Calcium sulfate


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Last edited by Darkblade48; 11-30-2017 at 01:59 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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