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post #1 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-01-2017, 09:27 PM Thread Starter
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Fe Question...

Hey gang,

If I am dosing Iron Chelate 10% and 13% do I need to dose Ferrous Gluconate along with it? Newb question but even after almost 10 years, I'm still a newb.

Thanks!

Clint

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post #2 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 01:25 AM
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Hi Dempsey,

I dose both (on the same day). I dose approximately 0.2 ppm of chelate (CSM+B) and 0.3 ppm of Ferrous Gluconate. I read that gluconate was easier for plants to uptake and that excessive chelates can possibly be disadvantages to plants.

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post #3 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 01:33 AM
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Fe Question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Dempsey,



I dose both (on the same day). I dose approximately 0.2 ppm of chelate (CSM+B) and 0.3 ppm of Ferrous Gluconate. I read that gluconate was easier for plants to uptake and that excessive chelates can possibly be disadvantages to plants.


Is seachem iron the only one that is ferrous gluconate?

And how large is your tank?


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post #4 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 02:27 AM
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Need to? No

Is it possibly advantageous to dose both? Short term, Probably so. Long term? Well the jury is still out on that one.

The main question in my opinion is, will it make any real difference? In my experience and tinkering. Not really.

Honestly, I think iron is the most over rated nutrient in our arsenal. Years ago it was unknown how much iron (and type) was needed (terrestrially speaking) . We have grown past that. It's simply not the panacea most make it out to be. Dose either and you would be hard pressed to notice any real difference.

I will say that in light of my recent discovery about EDTA and DTPA having a negative impact, I would opt for all gluconate despite the need to dose on a daily basis. Until we can source better chelates we should all consider simple chelates such as gluconate or other basic acids. I find it ridiculous that we add something several times a week to our tanks that does not biodegrade. Couple that with the fact that gluconate chelate is easier for plants to use and it seems a clear choice. Until we can get biodegradable chelates such as EDDS or IDHA I would recommend sticking with weaker yet safer chelates such as gluconate.
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post #5 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 02:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clownplanted View Post
Is seachem iron the only one that is ferrous gluconate?

And how large is your tank?
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Hi @clownplanted,

I dose those ppm levels for all of my tanks, 75 gallon through 10 gallon.
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post #6 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 09:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Dempsey,

I dose both (on the same day). I dose approximately 0.2 ppm of chelate (CSM+B) and 0.3 ppm of Ferrous Gluconate. I read that gluconate was easier for plants to uptake and that excessive chelates can possibly be disadvantages to plants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
Need to? No

Is it possibly advantageous to dose both? Short term, Probably so. Long term? Well the jury is still out on that one.

The main question in my opinion is, will it make any real difference? In my experience and tinkering. Not really.

Honestly, I think iron is the most over rated nutrient in our arsenal. Years ago it was unknown how much iron (and type) was needed (terrestrially speaking) . We have grown past that. It's simply not the panacea most make it out to be. Dose either and you would be hard pressed to notice any real difference.

I will say that in light of my recent discovery about EDTA and DTPA having a negative impact, I would opt for all gluconate despite the need to dose on a daily basis. Until we can source better chelates we should all consider simple chelates such as gluconate or other basic acids. I find it ridiculous that we add something several times a week to our tanks that does not biodegrade. Couple that with the fact that gluconate chelate is easier for plants to use and it seems a clear choice. Until we can get biodegradable chelates such as EDDS or IDHA I would recommend sticking with weaker yet safer chelates such as gluconate.
I add 1tbsp of CSM+B, 1/4tsp Iron Chelate 13% and 1/4tsp of 10% in a 500ml bottle along with 1/8tsp of MNSO4. I would then dose 30ml 3x per week(this was when my tank was heavily planted)75G. I have only been dosing 15ml 3x per week since I have been hearing about micro toxins from dosing too much micros.. This is something that I have never heard of until recently. For the most part I dose via EI but add a few extras...

Would you recommend dropping or halting the Fe Chelate and start dosing Ferrous Gluconate?
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Last edited by Dempsey; 05-02-2017 at 09:20 PM. Reason: dosing amounts
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post #7 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 10:36 PM
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Hi Clint,

What size tank so I can calculate the ppm levels? All I know right now is you are dosing about 4X more Fe via CSM+B than you are with the two Fe chalates combined.
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post #8 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 10:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Clint,

What size tank so I can calculate the ppm levels? All I know right now is you are dosing about 4X more Fe via CSM+B than you are with the two Fe chalates combined.
75 gallon. Notice that I fixed my mistake... I'm dosing 1/2tsp total of Fe. It still may be a lot though I guess?

Bump: I forgot to mention that I normally dose 30ml but have been dosing 15ml just the past couple weeks.

Clint

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post #9 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey View Post
75 gallon. Notice that I fixed my mistake... I'm dosing 1/2tsp total of Fe. It still may be a lot though I guess?

Bump: I forgot to mention that I normally dose 30ml but have been dosing 15ml just the past couple weeks.

30 ml = 6 teaspoons = 2 tablespoons
1/2 teaspoon = 2.5 ml

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post #10 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 11:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
30 ml = 6 teaspoons = 2 tablespoons
1/2 teaspoon = 2.5 ml
So I should be dosing 2tbsp in the 500ml bottle? Of CSM+B that is..

I lost all of my old dosing measurements and have been going a little lean since my tank it still starting... Thought, now that I think about it, I am dosing very lean....

Clint

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post #11 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-02-2017, 11:45 PM
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Hi Clint,

If you run about 3" of substrate as I do then you have about 60 gallons of water in that 75 gallon tank. If I calculated correctly a 15 ml dose of your formula in post #6 will provide:

CSM+B = 0.15 ppm Fe
10% Fe = 0.03 ppm Fe
13% Fe = 0.04 ppm Fe
Total = 0.22 ppm Fe
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post #12 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 12:00 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Clint,

If you run about 3" of substrate as I do then you have about 60 gallons of water in that 75 gallon tank. If I calculated correctly a 15 ml dose of your formula in post #6 will provide:

CSM+B = 0.15 ppm Fe
10% Fe = 0.03 ppm Fe
13% Fe = 0.04 ppm Fe
Total = 0.22 ppm Fe
So I should be right on par if I go back to 2tbsp of CSM+B in the 500ml dosing bottle with 30ml doses. Thank you very much for your time! I have also ordered ferrous gluconate to add to my arsenal.

Whoops, sorry, Just read your other post.

Clint

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Last edited by Dempsey; 05-03-2017 at 12:30 AM. Reason: error
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post #13 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Clint,

If you run about 3" of substrate as I do then you have about 60 gallons of water in that 75 gallon tank. If I calculated correctly a 15 ml dose of your formula in post #6 will provide:

CSM+B = 0.15 ppm Fe
10% Fe = 0.03 ppm Fe
13% Fe = 0.04 ppm Fe
Total = 0.22 ppm Fe

Looks like I will have to lean back a bit on the Fe if I want to be able to be able to dose 30ml for other micros...

Clint

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post #14 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dempsey View Post
Looks like I will have to lean back a bit on the Fe if I want to be able to be able to dose 30ml for other micros...
Hi Dempsey,

It depends on what your target Fe ppm level is. I just recently removed some of the Iron Chelate I was dosing from my dosing schedule and added gluconate to replace it. I can't locate the post by Tom Barr but if I recall correctly he uses a mixture of CSM+B, ferrous gluconate; and a small amount of EDDHA.

I regularly have to remind myself that there is no "perfect" level for any of the nutrients I dose; each species I keep evolved a in different environment and what may be good for one is likely not ideal for another. I just strive to provide enough of each nutrient so the majority of my plants are growing well - sometimes I fail miserably!

Roy_________
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Last edited by Seattle_Aquarist; 05-04-2017 at 02:32 PM. Reason: ..
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post #15 of 49 (permalink) Old 05-03-2017, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Dempsey,

I depends on what your target Fe ppm level is. I just recently removed some of the Iron Chelate I was dosing from my dosing schedule and added gluconate to replace it. I can't locate the post by Tom Barr but if I recall correctly he uses a mixture of CSM+B, ferrous gluconate; and a small amount of EDDHA.

I regularly have to remind myself that there is no "perfect" level for any of the nutrients I dose; each species I keep evolved a in different environment and what may be good for one is likely not ideal for another. I just strive to provide enough of each nutrient so the majority of my plants are growing well - sometimes I fail miserably!
Just a side note, EDDHA will last pretty much forever, or however long it takes for the plants to uptake it. Very stable chelate in a wide range of PH. But it is almost like blood red food coloring, dosing anymore than 0.05ppm to the tank and you will get a slight pink tint to the water. My dosing solution has 200ppm of EDDHA, and it is a very opaque dark red color. Mixing EDDHA Fe with some water and a tad of Vegetable glycerin for thickness would make some cinema quality fake blood!

Also as Zorfox said, we don't really know what the chelates do in the aquarium, so I'm very lean on the EDDHA at 0.01ppm per day. I'm trying to source some Ferrous gluconate as I dose everyday anyways, and it seems like a better approach so you don't get accumulation of chelates.

And I think Barr uses DTPA, with a ratio of 3-1-1 CSM+B, Ferrous Gluconate and DPTA if he hasn't changed his Micro recipe recently.
I had some issues which seem to relate to the CSM+B (toxicity) but I can't say for sure what it is in the CSM+B that causes it, but AR minis would twist like crazy and melt away at EI levels for me.
And looking at Burr740 journal, it would seem like plants need very little of CSM+B, it's called Trace elements for a reason. So I would rather go 1-3-1 CSM+b, Ferrous gluconate and DTPA. Skip the DTPA all together if you dose every day.
But thats just my personal view on the topic.


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Last edited by Malakian; 05-03-2017 at 01:13 PM. Reason: Typo
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