Co2 - Seems like I'm using an ungodly amount of BPS - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Co2 - Seems like I'm using an ungodly amount of BPS

Just wanted to check if I'm in the right ball park, but I seem to be using a lot of co2 compared to others.

65g tank, good surface agitation, heavily planted, medium light. Using a 10 "Cerges reactor with a 320gph Eheim canister, it uses 16mm ID hoses, but I stepped the output on the cerges down to 12mm ID hose, to hopefully get some more pressure inside the reactor. It is also slightly slanted, so the co2 pocket collects at the inlet port of the reactor.

I have to use around 11 bps (straight out of the co2 tubing, so pretty large bubbles too) to get the drop checker in the light green range. Is this about right or should I be checking for leaks in the reactor?
I took a Slow-mo video 10 sec long, then counted the bubbles and divided by 10. Way too fast to count in "person".


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post #2 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 03:55 PM
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have you tried checking the PH drop from when co2 is not running to after the co2 is running for 2-3 hours? This is just to make sure your drop check has the proper 4dkh solution.


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post #3 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 04:04 PM
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I thought you didn't want surface agitation when supplying co2? No idea if that would account for your increased usage.


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post #4 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 04:13 PM
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It does seem pretty high. Are you getting complete co2 dissolution, or are bubbles making it in the tank?
Your gh/kh play a major role as well. Is your water hard?
Do you turn your co2 off at night?
I have a 150 gal on canister filters and use multiple cerges run in series in order to get full dissolution. Dont know what my bps is. Prolly close to yours. I need surface agitation in order to keep o2 lvls up. Without it my fish gasp.
On my 125 i have a sealed sump with the same reactor set up. No surface agitation needed because of sump, and can run more co2 if i wanted. Bps is close to the same.
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post #5 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Malakian View Post
Just wanted to check if I'm in the right ball park, but I seem to be using a lot of co2 compared to others.

65g tank, good surface agitation, heavily planted, medium light. Using a 10 "Cerges reactor with a 320gph Eheim canister, it uses 16mm ID hoses, but I stepped the output on the cerges down to 12mm ID hose, to hopefully get some more pressure inside the reactor. It is also slightly slanted, so the co2 pocket collects at the inlet port of the reactor.

I have to use around 11 bps (straight out of the co2 tubing, so pretty large bubbles too) to get the drop checker in the light green range. Is this about right or should I be checking for leaks in the reactor?
I took a Slow-mo video 10 sec long, then counted the bubbles and divided by 10. Way too fast to count in "person".
With mine when I turn on good surface agitation I also have to really up the bps. With no surface agitation I am at about 4.5bps but when I turn on power head that rips the surface along with a HOB filter that runs just for surface agitation I have to up to about 10bps to keep the same amount of co2 in the tank. Surface agitation seems to really off gas a lot of co2 so I do not think you are leaking or anything just off gassing a lot.

So during the day I do no surface agitation and keep at 4.5bps and get 35ppm of co2. No fish are gasping for air. And after co2 is off I turn on the power head and HOB.
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post #6 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Hmm, might be my agitation then. But I've read that O2 is just as important as co2 plenty of times. And seeing Barr and multiple people reported a drastic decrees in dissolved O2 with the use of canisters vs wet/dry.

Might dial down the agitation some then, got both the outflow of the FX6 pointing slightly up, and my Koralia nano. Giving a strong ripple across the entire surface, doesn't break the surface tensions though.
No, there isn't much of bubbles coming out of the outlet. There are some micro bubbles, but they are so small they get picked up by the current, doesn't make it to the surface.
How would GH/KH affect dissolved co2, never heard that before?

Edit: I took out the Koralia all together since the Eheim provides a good deal of additional flow, and point one of the FX outlets so it doesn't disturb the surface much, and the other so it disturbs a little less. Also turned down the Co2 a tad, just in case. Guess I'll see in about 2 hours.

Can't really check PH efficiently thats why I'm relying on the DC at the moment. My PH probe crapped out on me and I just have drop testers now. Got a new PH pen on the way in the mail.

I turn off co2 at night, but for "dialing in" purposes, I have it on 24/7 today and maybe tomorrow to get the ppm's right. Was using a Atomic diffuser before, and getting yellow DC with less BPS. So I think DC isn't really accurate with a lot of mist. Seem to measure way higher than actually dissolved in the water.
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Last edited by Malakian; 04-21-2017 at 05:22 PM. Reason: typo
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post #7 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 05:34 PM
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Hmm, might be my agitation then. But I've read that O2 is just as important as co2 plenty of times. And seeing Barr and multiple people reported a drastic decrees in dissolved O2 with the use of canisters vs wet/dry.

Might dial down the agitation some then, got both the outflow of the FX6 pointing slightly up, and my Koralia nano. Giving a strong ripple across the entire surface, doesn't break the surface tensions though.
No, there isn't much of bubbles coming out of the outlet. There are some micro bubbles, but they are so small they get picked up by the current, doesn't make it to the surface.
How would GH/KH affect dissolved co2, never heard that before?

Edit: I took out the Koralia all together since the Eheim provides a good deal of additional flow, and point one of the FX outlets so it doesn't disturb the surface much, and the other so it disturbs a little less. Also turned down the Co2 a tad, just in case. Guess I'll see in about 2 hours.

Can't really check PH efficiently thats why I'm relying on the DC at the moment. My PH probe crapped out on me and I just have drop testers now. Got a new PH pen on the way in the mail.

I turn off co2 at night, but for "dialing in" purposes, I have it on 24/7 today and maybe tomorrow to get the ppm's right. Was using a Atomic diffuser before, and getting yellow DC with less BPS. So I think DC isn't really accurate with a lot of mist. Seem to measure way higher than actually dissolved in the water.
I think thats a good plan. Seems like you were doing a bit too much surface agitation. The good thing about surface agitation obviously is you can run more co2 than the 35ppm and get away with it without gassing your fish. So you can pretty much run a yellow drop checker. I think you are on the right track in that you maybe had a bit too much surface ripping. I do no surface agitation and run a good light green drop checker at 35ppm co2 and the fish are all fine and the plants seem to have the perfect amount so not worried about running a yellow drop checker to run more co2. But like I said I could if ever need to and just run the powerhead during the day. Key is in your case good surface movement but no splashing or bubbles from surface movement.
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post #8 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:12 PM
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Gh/kh has everything to do with your co2 lvls. Google it. If you want fauna with your flora, then you need to maintain your o2 lvls.

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post #9 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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I think you have to reread the KH - Co2 part. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with the dissolved co2.

Say you get 1 point ph drop at 30ml/min co2 at KH3, you would still get the same amount of Co2 into the tank and same ph drop if your KH was 15.

Might be the Co2/KH table that is confusing you, seen others do that to. When you look at the KH as it rises so does the co2 ppm, or so it seems. But most don't take into account that adding KH will also raise your PH, which would shove you in the "wrong" direction again on the table co2 wise. So they equal (equalize?) each other out.

Any who, 30ml/min is 30ml/min. No matter if you have 0,0 KH/GH or 20,20 KH/GH. Raising your KH/GH will not magically add more Co2.

Edit: Sorry, that sounded pretty harsh/aggressive. Was not my intention, I'm Norwegian so I'm not the best at wording myself :P

Reducing the agitation seem to do the trick, lighter shade of green at lower bps.
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post #10 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:43 PM
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Co2 - Seems like I'm using an ungodly amount of BPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakian View Post
I think you have to reread the KH - Co2 part. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with the dissolved co2.



Say you get 1 point ph drop at 30ml/min co2 at KH3, you would still get the same amount of Co2 into the tank and same ph drop if your KH was 15.



Might be the Co2/KH table that is confusing you, seen others do that to. When you look at the KH as it rises so does the co2 ppm, or so it seems. But most don't take into account that adding KH will also raise your PH, which would shove you in the "wrong" direction again on the table co2 wise. So they equal (equalize?) each other out.



Any who, 30ml/min is 30ml/min. No matter if you have 0,0 KH/GH or 20,20 KH/GH. Raising your KH/GH will not magically add more Co2.



Edit: Sorry, that sounded pretty harsh/aggressive. Was not my intention, I'm Norwegian so I'm not the best at wording myself :P



Reducing the agitation seem to do the trick, lighter shade of green at lower bps.


LOL I know I ran into the same exact issue. I was pushing bps so fast I could not get close to counting it was easily 10+ LOL. Turned off surface agitation and am at a stable light green 35ppm at 4.5bps for the last few weeks. I know its my HOB that was causing the big time off gassing with all the bubbles it was creating and too much movement. So I just run that HOB at night. May play around a bit and run the surface ripping power head with no HOB and turn up the bps to see if I can get a good yellow drop checker with no gassing of fish but like I said really no need since they are all fine at 35ppm co2. Glad you got it figured out.
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post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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LOL I know I ran into the same exact issue. I was pushing bps so fast I could not get close to counting it was easily 10+ LOL. Turned off surface agitation and am at a stable light green 35ppm at 4.5bps for the last few weeks. I know its my HOB that was causing the big time off gassing with all the bubbles it was creating and too much movement. So I just run that HOB at night. May play around a bit and run the surface ripping power head with no HOB and turn up the bps to see if I can get a good yellow drop checker with no gassing of fish but like I said really no need since they are all fine at 35ppm co2.

Yeah, seem to help quite a bit. Will have to keep an eye on stock though, for signs of stress because of the potential lower O2 now. I try to keep my DC very light green/yellow myself. Don't want to "under" dose co2. I like to stay a bit on the heavier side as long as fauna is ok with it.

But it doesn't really seem necessary from what I read from Tom on Barr Report. Unless you have REALLY strong lights 30ppm should be plenty. But yeah, better safe than sorry and co2 isn't that expensive (even though its about 5x more here in Norway, 55$ to fill a 12lbs tank but the tank lasts a good while so no worries there).
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post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 06:55 PM
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Yeah, seem to help quite a bit. Will have to keep an eye on stock though, for signs of stress because of the potential lower O2 now. I try to keep my DC very light green/yellow myself. Don't want to "under" dose co2. I like to stay a bit on the heavier side as long as fauna is ok with it.



But it doesn't really seem necessary from what I read from Tom on Barr Report. Unless you have REALLY strong lights 30ppm should be plenty. But yeah, better safe than sorry and co2 isn't that expensive (even though its about 5x more here in Norway, 55$ to fill a 12lbs tank but the tank lasts a good while so no worries there).


$55 is not bad and pretty much same price I pay. Well I pay $20 for a 5lb bottle so is really same price. Either way it's not that bad. Still on my first bottle which has been going for a month and half.


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post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:03 PM Thread Starter
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We'll then its not far off at all. Just thought I remembered seeing people filling for about a buck pr lbs. Guess it varies a lot from place to place in the US too. It's like 15 Norways in 1 after all, size wise :P
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post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Malakian View Post
I think you have to reread the KH - Co2 part. Pretty sure it has nothing to do with the dissolved co2.

Say you get 1 point ph drop at 30ml/min co2 at KH3, you would still get the same amount of Co2 into the tank and same ph drop if your KH was 15.

Might be the Co2/KH table that is confusing you, seen others do that to. When you look at the KH as it rises so does the co2 ppm, or so it seems. But most don't take into account that adding KH will also raise your PH, which would shove you in the "wrong" direction again on the table co2 wise. So they equal (equalize?) each other out.

Any who, 30ml/min is 30ml/min. No matter if you have 0,0 KH/GH or 20,20 KH/GH. Raising your KH/GH will not magically add more Co2.

Edit: Sorry, that sounded pretty harsh/aggressive. Was not my intention, I'm Norwegian so I'm not the best at wording myself :P

Reducing the agitation seem to do the trick, lighter shade of green at lower bps.
Lol.
No offense taken.
So what youre telling me is that a tank with 15kh will get the same ppm of co2 at 10 bps as a tank with 0 Kh?

KH buffers acids such as carbonic acid, so you have to inject more CO2 at higher KH to achieve the same pH drop as lower injection rate at lower KH.
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Last edited by Mikevwall; 04-21-2017 at 07:48 PM. Reason: :
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post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 04-21-2017, 07:46 PM
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Lol.
No offense taken.
So what youre telling me is that a tank with 15kh will get the same ppm of co2 at 10 bps as a tank with 0 kh?
You can add or take away any amount of KH/GH and it wont change your co2ppm. You can even test this. I weekly add GH/KH to my tank and it doesnt change my co2 level at all. Tom Barr explains it pretty good here. Read post#9 https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11...formation.html


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Last edited by clownplanted; 04-21-2017 at 10:27 PM. Reason: added info
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