change to rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator regarding csm+b and Miller - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 03:22 AM Thread Starter
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change to rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator regarding csm+b and Miller

the new change was made recently from 0.5 ppm csm+b to 0.2 ppm csm+b 3x week, this change was made after Me and Lawrence had discussion with Tom, it was either serious error or mistake or they assumed it was ok to dose such a high dose. those who were dosing these amounts were dosing excess amount of csm+b and miller. people dosing these levels should have experienced many type of issues from toxicity to deaths of shrimps and livestock, i wont get in that debate here, but 0.5ppm csm+b 3x week is quite high and excess. 0.2 ppm csm+x 3x week seems little better if not perfect. but can you imagine how long people been using this calculator and been dosing 0.5 ppm csm+b 3x week? but i hope those who had issue will no longer have issue even though i personally think 0.2 ppm 3x week might be too much under certain conditions. it was also corrected for Microplex miller to 0.2 ppm instead of 0.5 ppm, i wonder what kind of effect 1.5 ppm would do if one was dosing miller due to high copper.

i would like to hear from others if they were already dosing 0.5 ppm 3X week vs 0.2 ppm
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 03:58 AM
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I can confirm that 0.5mg/L of Fe from CSM dosed each day for three days killed all my shrimp and snails, and eventually killed half my fish. One fish had gills so swollen that it dislocated its own jaw. It eventually starved to death because it couldn't eat. A number of other fish also had swollen gills during this time.

I was assured this amount of traces "causes no issues". Traces were already high from previous dosing which built up over the weeks. A 50% water change at the end of each week was not enough to "reset" the tank as has been stated.

I used snails as test subjects to see if the water was safe enough for shrimp to be added. For the first few months, when a snail was added, it would stay on in its shell and never come back out. It would just die. Finally, after several months of numerous, large 50-80% water changes, the snails i added would survive.

My tap water is very soft, <15mg/L of hardness. KH~2. So that amount of CSM was very toxic. The more GH I added, though, the less the animals reacted when i added CSM.

I've documented some of my observations in the "H. Pinnatifida: How much potassium?" thread in the plants forum. The more CSM, the more pinholes. I eventually killed all the H. pinna trying to figure out how much traces were needed. However, now I can grow them perfectly fine and if there are pinholes, it's actually due to low potassium.

Edit: my god, rereading that thread from two years ago, I sound like an idiot! I was dosing 160+mg/L of K per week!!! I refused to believe it was a micro tox even though ppl were telling that's just way too much of everything.

Last edited by Solcielo lawrencia; 10-22-2016 at 04:11 AM. Reason: Edit
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 05:52 AM
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I'm glad that a change was applied to the dose considering a lot of people are starting to switch to inert substrate. My recent tests indicate that it is very easy to get high concentrations of micros when using inert substrate at the previous levels that were posted, It would have been very toxic if the person would miss even 1 water change. If you also take into account a tank with a poorly calibrated CO2 and lighting setup then it might be possible to get toxic levels quickly too.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happi View Post
this change was made after Me and Lawrence had discussion with Tom,
Can you link this conversation between you, Sol and Tom? I'd like to read it and Im sure it would be helpful to everyone else too.

I was under the impression @fablau and Jason changed it after the conversation with Tom in this thread - Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

It would certainly be interesting to see a discussion between you two guys and Tom about it.


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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 07:11 AM
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probably a dumb question but when you say 0.2 ppm csm+b 3x week do you mean:

a:
0.2 day 1, 0.2 day 3, 0.2 day 5

or b:
0.0667 day 1, 0.0667 day 3, 0.0667 day 5


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Last edited by SingAlongWithTsing; 10-22-2016 at 07:23 AM. Reason: math correction
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post
probably a dumb question but when you say 0.2 ppm csm+b 3x week do you mean:

a:
0.2 day 1, 0.2 day 3, 0.2 day 5

or b:
0.0667 day 1, 0.0667 day 3, 0.0667 day 5
A

A = .2 ppm 3x a week, for a total of .6 ppm per week

B = .2 ppm total for the week


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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-22-2016, 02:31 PM
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change to rotalabutterfly nutrient calculator regarding csm+b and Miller

Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Can you link this conversation between you, Sol and Tom? I'd like to read it and Im sure it would be helpful to everyone else too.

I was under the impression @fablau and Jason changed it after the conversation with Tom in this thread - Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

It would certainly be interesting to see a discussion between you two guys and Tom about it.


Yes Burr, you are right, I made the change to the calculator after agreed with Tom on that thread. We all agreed that 0.2ppm Fe from CSM every other day 2-3 times a week is the max plants can take without issues, even though Tom says that a little more wouldn't hurt (but consider that Tom performs often 2 or more water changes a week). He also doses daily about 0.1 Fe from CSM.

I hope this clarifies.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-23-2016, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fablau View Post
Yes Burr, you are right, I made the change to the calculator after agreed with Tom on that thread. We all agreed that 0.2ppm Fe from CSM every other day 2-3 times a week is the max plants can take without issues, even though Tom says that a little more wouldn't hurt (but consider that Tom performs often 2 or more water changes a week). He also doses daily about 0.1 Fe from CSM.

I hope this clarifies.
Tom's been saying 0.5mg/L of CSM 3x/week "causes no issues". That's why I tried dosing just that to try to cure the issues I was having in my tank, which ultimately killed all my shrimp and snails and half my fish. The fish that survived were stunted or suffered physiological and neurological damage as evidenced by the inability to identify live foods, slow reaction to stimuli, chronic lethargy, and drastically reduced spawning behavior. He's also stated numerous times that no one has ever killed anything by dosing traces even after I told him what had happened to my animals. He just ignored me and many others who've experienced this and just continues to repeat himself as if we didn't raise any concerns. So to suddenly change course like he is now is him trying to cover up obvious mistakes which he refuses to acknowledge after numerous discussions about it. Without our repeated discussions about nutrient toxicity (I mentioned this 0.5mg/L error almost a year ago but nothing was done about it) and the obviousness of bad growth in Pikez's tank journal, Tom Barr would continue to claim 0.5mg/L of CSM "causes no issues" and that it won't harm or kill fish and shrimp. He's trying to avoid admitting he has been wrong all these years and is now looking for excuses to avoid being blamed for giving really bad advice.

Just a heads up: the macros can also toxic to certain species at the suggested amounts in the calculator. 30mg/L of nitrate is well beyond the threshold for toxicity for at least a few species. Just like ammonium-N is toxic in excess, so too is nitrate-N in excess. Someone shared a paper regarding Hydrilla nitrogen response. The paper stated that 5mg/L of N from ammonium or nitrate is toxic. That works out to ~6mg/L of ammonium and ~22mg/L of nitrate. Nitrogen toxicity symptoms can result in wilting or downward curling of older leaves. This is one of the reasons EI-dosed tanks all have this symptom. Phosphate can also be toxic at the suggested amounts and can cause overall stunting and death of older leaves. Excess potassium can inhibit uptake of calcium and magnesium and has other negative effects. So future updates to the calculator would be needed after our experiments show strong, repeatable results.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Tom's been saying 0.5mg/L of CSM 3x/week "causes no issues". That's why I tried dosing just that to try to cure the issues I was having in my tank, which ultimately killed all my shrimp and snails and half my fish. The fish that survived were stunted or suffered physiological and neurological damage as evidenced by the inability to identify live foods, slow reaction to stimuli, chronic lethargy, and drastically reduced spawning behavior. He's also stated numerous times that no one has ever killed anything by dosing traces even after I told him what had happened to my animals. He just ignored me and many others who've experienced this and just continues to repeat himself as if we didn't raise any concerns. So to suddenly change course like he is now is him trying to cover up obvious mistakes which he refuses to acknowledge after numerous discussions about it. Without our repeated discussions about nutrient toxicity (I mentioned this 0.5mg/L error almost a year ago but nothing was done about it) and the obviousness of bad growth in Pikez's tank journal, Tom Barr would continue to claim 0.5mg/L of CSM "causes no issues" and that it won't harm or kill fish and shrimp. He's trying to avoid admitting he has been wrong all these years and is now looking for excuses to avoid being blamed for giving really bad advice.

Just a heads up: the macros can also toxic to certain species at the suggested amounts in the calculator. 30mg/L of nitrate is well beyond the threshold for toxicity for at least a few species. Just like ammonium-N is toxic in excess, so too is nitrate-N in excess. Someone shared a paper regarding Hydrilla nitrogen response. The paper stated that 5mg/L of N from ammonium or nitrate is toxic. That works out to ~6mg/L of ammonium and ~22mg/L of nitrate. Nitrogen toxicity symptoms can result in wilting or downward curling of older leaves. This is one of the reasons EI-dosed tanks all have this symptom. Phosphate can also be toxic at the suggested amounts and can cause overall stunting and death of older leaves. Excess potassium can inhibit uptake of calcium and magnesium and has other negative effects. So future updates to the calculator would be needed after our experiments show strong, repeatable results.
What would you consider to be safe levels of macros?
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 06:09 PM
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What would you consider to be safe levels of macros?
I haven't focused on this question in my experiments so far. But if adding excess nitrate results in crinkled new leaves, an induced calcium deficiency, then that would be too much.

Here's an old thread from 2008 about this phenomenon. JamesC experimented with urea vs. NO3 and the results suggest that urea does not inhibit calcium uptake like nitrate does. The entire thread is worth a read and you'll notice Barr dismissing urea as a nitrogen source. Ironically, Barr suggested to use urea about a month ago after dismissing it for years.
Dosing with Ammonia and Urea | Page 3 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Just some extra information that may be important, in the crop literature, nitrate-N helps increase absorption of ammonium-N, something about the cation pushing the anion around. This increases growth than if only ammonium were applied. If this applies to submerged aquatic plants, then they should grow faster with a mixed source of N. I dont know if this applies to urea, however.

Also, excess potassium can inhibit calcium uptake. I've noticed this occurs quickly when K is more than Ca, but I'll need to experiment further to confirm. My tap is very soft, Ca ~10mg/L. If I add 12mg/L of K from K2SO4, some of the new Rotala leaves crinkle, but H. pinnatifida grows faster with the higher potassium concentrations.

Kekon has done these experiments and has observed the same phenomenon but at different nutrient ratios. Here's a thread more than 10 years old. He also asked how some can have high K and low Ca without problems. If that's true, then it has to do with different plants or maybe a third variable that prevents potassium-induced calcium blockage like high Mg.
50 ppm Ca and still Ca deficiency - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central

Also, excess trace metal cations can also inhibit calcium uptake. This is why the crinkly new leaf symptoms sometimes occur when dosing high amounts of traces. This is what I've observed many times when I was dosing EI levels of CSM.

So to answer your question succinctly, there are many variables that affect nutrient uptake and inhibition. I don't think suggesting any amount can be done without also indicating other parameters.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
I haven't focused on this question in my experiments so far. But if adding excess nitrate results in crinkled new leaves, an induced calcium deficiency, then that would be too much.

Here's an old thread from 2008 about this phenomenon. JamesC experimented with urea vs. NO3 and the results suggest that urea does not inhibit calcium uptake like nitrate does. The entire thread is worth a read and you'll notice Barr dismissing urea as a nitrogen source. Ironically, Barr suggested to use urea about a month ago after dismissing it for years.
Dosing with Ammonia and Urea | Page 3 | UK Aquatic Plant Society

Just some extra information that may be important, in the crop literature, nitrate-N helps increase absorption of ammonium-N, something about the cation pushing the anion around. This increases growth than if only ammonium were applied. If this applies to submerged aquatic plants, then they should grow faster with a mixed source of N. I dont know if this applies to urea, however.

Also, excess potassium can inhibit calcium uptake. I've noticed this occurs quickly when K is more than Ca, but I'll need to experiment further to confirm. My tap is very soft, Ca ~10mg/L. If I add 12mg/L of K from K2SO4, some of the new Rotala leaves crinkle, but H. pinnatifida grows faster with the higher potassium concentrations.

Kekon has done these experiments and has observed the same phenomenon but at different nutrient ratios. Here's a thread more than 10 years old. He also asked how some can have high K and low Ca without problems. If that's true, then it has to do with different plants or maybe a third variable that prevents potassium-induced calcium blockage like high Mg.
50 ppm Ca and still Ca deficiency - Fertilizing - Aquatic Plant Central

Also, excess trace metal cations can also inhibit calcium uptake. This is why the crinkly new leaf symptoms sometimes occur when dosing high amounts of traces. This is what I've observed many times when I was dosing EI levels of CSM.

So to answer your question succinctly, there are many variables that affect nutrient uptake and inhibition. I don't think suggesting any amount can be done without also indicating other parameters.
Thanks! What about levels in regards to fish and inverts?
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-25-2016, 11:41 PM
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Thanks! What about levels in regards to fish and inverts?
There are numerous scientific articles that describe toxicology experiments for numerous species of animals. A suggested 0.2mg/L of Fe from CSM is well beyond the toxic threshold that causes harm from multiple nutrients. Since heavy metal toxicity is generally synergistic, e.g. "safe" levels of a metal can become very toxic in the presence of "safe" levels of another, adding "safe" amounts can still cause harm. Few studies, however, actually test this phenomenon.. Higher calcium and magnesium concentrations will increase the toxic threshold, meaning higher GH reduces toxicity. However, no such protection is afforded in soft waters for soft water fish.

Because CSM contains EDTA chelated metals, they should be safer than free metals, at least up to a point. Free metals can actually be safer than chelated metals because they can oxidize and precipitate rapidly, rendering them inert so animals are not exposed to them. But since chelated metals persist far longer, toxicity can actually increase depending on how much is present.

Also, it really needs to be clarified that using LD50 studies is very wrong to determine toxicity. LD50 is death. The toxicology studies that are relevent are the sublethal experiments, the ones that result in reduced spawning, hatching, fry survival, loss of olfaction, damage to gill lamelae, neurological damage, liver damage, tumours, etc. Most of these signs can only be observed under a microscope after dissection.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-26-2016, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Because CSM contains EDTA chelated metals, they should be safer than free metals, at least up to a point. Free metals can actually be safer than chelated metals because they can oxidize and precipitate rapidly, rendering them inert so animals are not exposed to them. But since chelated metals persist far longer, toxicity can actually increase depending on how much is present.

Chelated should be safer, but free can actually be safer.

Do you know what a chelate actually is? Or are you just spit balling it?

Feel free to edit.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-29-2016, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by fablau View Post
Yes Burr, you are right, I made the change to the calculator after agreed with Tom on that thread. We all agreed that 0.2ppm Fe from CSM every other day 2-3 times a week is the max plants can take without issues, even though Tom says that a little more wouldn't hurt (but consider that Tom performs often 2 or more water changes a week). He also doses daily about 0.1 Fe from CSM.

I hope this clarifies.
Yes that is what I thought happened. But I also knew Happi and Sol werent anywhere around, which is why I was confused by this claim in the OP -

Quote:
Originally Posted by happi View Post
... this change was made after Me and Lawrence had discussion with Tom, it was either serious error or mistake or they assumed it was ok to dose such a high dose.
So unless I missed something, which is why I asked, this appears to be completely fabricated based on what actually happened.

Strange...


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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-29-2016, 05:58 AM
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Yes that is what I thought happened. But I also knew Happi and Sol werent anywhere around, which is why I was confused by this claim in the OP -

So unless I missed something, which is why I asked, this appears to be completely fabricated based on what actually happened.

Strange...
Please read post #8.
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