Leafs curling under on tips - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-09-2010, 11:52 PM Thread Starter
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Leafs curling under on tips

I am hoping someone can help me figure out which deficiency this is..

75 gallon
NItrates running 20ppm
Phosphate running 0.5
PH 6.2-6.4
KH 2dg
GH 16dg
Iron 0.1
Lighting is on for 8 hours daily..2pm-10pm 54x2 T5-ho with a 2 hour burst between 4-6pm.
I added 1/1.5 tsp of potassium on the 7th..still seeing leaf tips curled under..
Changing out about 20 gallons RO water every-other week..

As you can see from the pics of the lud. cuba,they are so bad they almost look like fish-hooks..

I recently went with MTS with OIL-DRI for substrate..I am dosing trace until I can see some of the roots through the bottom of the tank hit the soil..I did NOT add any calcium type product under the mts as I had forgot and it was too late to do anything about it..


Colors seem fine,nice and green,despite what camera showed..And the bamboo leaves should be ignored( I didnt know that OTO's loved bamboo so much)they are currently in time-out.

As you can see the stargrass is doing well,as are crypts that I have,hairgrass.its just the plants which I have in the picture which are giving me a hard time.It is mostly on the older leaves.

OH,almost forgot co2 is about 3 bps through mineral oil..I say that because it goes slower through the mo as opposed to water..Plenty of co2 is all I can say...

Any input is appreciated...T/y
ZEN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 01:28 AM
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Here's what I think and what I would do. Head up to the dosing sticky and read about EI dosing for a tank your size and start dosing accordingly along with performing weekly 50% water changes. This will provide your plants with a nonlimiting amount of nutrients and you'll be able to rule out any macro or micronutrient deficiencies.

Then you can concentrate on what I think is the cause of your curled leaves on the L. cuba, inadequate CO2. I have a lot of P stellatus and it does the same thing if CO2 levels are too low. Things that usually affect my CO2 level are an overgrown tank decreasing circulation and a filter in need of cleaning decreasing circulation. So even though my bubble count is the same, some of the plants aren't getting enough CO2. Plus there is competition among the plants and so some plants get enough CO2 leaving other with too little. Once again, good circulation is your friend here.

You didn't mention how you're determining your CO2 level but bubble count isn't a really good method and neither is the pH/KH relationship. It assumes that carbonate is the only buffer in your water but other buffers like phosphate throw the calculation off so you might think your CO2 is 100 ppm based on the calculation but it's actually 15. The best way is by learning to watch your fish and plants and a dropchecker is a good help also. Slowly over the course of days increase the CO2. If you notice the fish beginning to act stressed - gasping or hanging out at the top, acting listless, loss of color, etc. then back off the CO2 a bit and/or increase your surface agitation some. The plants will begin to pearl within 2 or 3 hours of lights on and algae will gradually disappear and not return.

So ruling out most nutrient deficiencies is not hard. Having consistent, adequate CO2 levels is sometimes not as easy as it seems.

Last edited by Jeff5614; 04-11-2010 at 07:34 PM.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-10-2010, 10:35 PM
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If I had to guess, I'd say it's calcium deficiency. Ca deficient plants tend to have curled leaves. And it's kind of hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like the younger leaves are the ones that are curling, which is also consistent with Ca deficiency b/c Ca is not mobile in the plant.

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 05:58 PM
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CO2

Only time I have this with these same species: CO2.
Nutrients are non limiting in both the sediments and water column.

Apical meristem development is highly dependent on Carbon.
The typical responses are: curled leaves, particularly at the tips, and progressively smaller tips.

I have some massive healthy L cuba.

It's CO2.

Jeff's suggestions are right on, and this is also true not just for P stellata(I just sold 30 stems this week of that), but many stem plant species.

And yet I seem to never have stunted tip growth, I wonder why?
Or troubles growing this or that plant.........


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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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OK,I have bumped up the co2 to well,alot..lol

Tanks for the inputs,and I will watch and wait...
Zen

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Originally Posted by macclellan
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-11-2010, 10:11 PM
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zenfish-

Please update us on the results. It'd be great to hear about the progress.

Without Algae, death of mankind would be inevitable.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 01:58 AM Thread Starter
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Will do sewingalot.

I did 25gallon WC today...20 gallons RO/5 gallons tap...My tap is well water and is pretty hard,I find a 5-1 ratio works good for adding in hardness...

I did tests about 2 hours later..

Nitrate-10ppm
Phosphate-0.5
PH-6.0
KH-3dk
GH-11dk.

I added 8ml.trace.my mix=0.1 iron in 10 gallons..
I added 6ml.epsom salt mix..I forget the mix ratio,but I am thinking that with the GH being at least 10,I should be good on calcium??Someone please correct me if I am wrong..

I will also be adding in the potassium tommorrow..1-1/2 tsp dry..

I will be doing all tests again tommorrow so will post them also..I have noticed MUCH more pearling since upping co2..

ZEN

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zenfish View Post
I will be doing all tests again tommorrow so will post them also..I have noticed MUCH more pearling since upping co2..

ZEN
Keep a mental note about the effect of the CO2 on the plants.
You'll need it later and shall doubt it once again(most do at some point).

You can also do more frequent water changes+ dosing to stay on top of things.......then you can see if it's nutrients/CO2.

If you do a water change, do it about 1 hour after the lights come on, the plants should pearl very intense at the end of the day, this makes a good reference for future issues.

Here's what L cuba should look like when happy:



This is about 100 micrmol at the top, about 40 at the sediment.

Also, make sure you calibrate those test kits, otherwise, you are guessing You waste your labor/time and the cost of the test and end up with data that really is not confident.

CO2 has this issue and is much harder to calibrate and get somewhere, so focus on what you can measure and do it well.

A simple large WC, say 50-80% followed by dosing known amounts of ferts, is reasy to know what ppm's are, even without test kits.

Keep the current up for the surface, about enough just not to break the water's surface, this keeps good O2 and prevents stress for fish.

That should give you more wiggle room.




Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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OK,tested today..unfortunetly I cant test on weekdays until after lights on for about 3 hours sometimes 4...

Here are todays readings.

Nitrate-10
Phos-0.5
PH-6.0
KH-2dk
GH-11
Iron-SOLID 0.1 maybe a tad darker even..

OK,so I added in the potassium today...1-1/2 tsp..

And I have some more pics to add..

Also,If my GH is 11 is that high enough to prove that I have calcium in the water?

I have a few pics of something new which I am seeing on a few other plants...

NOW,as a disclaimer..ON 4/4 I added 3 ml. per gallon of peroxide..I forgot to add that in earlier posts...so on to the pics...

I have also bumped up the co2 today,as the fish are not stressed yet..

IN the top pic a sag leaf which started coming out a few days ago is twisted..it is right in the middle,and is new....

IN the bottom one you can see a leaf on some hygro which seems to be MISSING a piece of itself along its leaf stem..count down 6 leafs to the right of the heater and you will see it..

Thats all for today.await any input and will post tommorrow.
Thanks,
ZEN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-12-2010, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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OK,I am going to dose EI...starting soon,as early as this week,but I need some info..

I have fleet phos..and am NOT sure how much to dose for a 75 gallon..

I am going by the sticky in this forum for a 60-80 gallon tank...BUt i NEED A fleet dosage for my phos...

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-13-2010, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
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OK,I am going to dose EI starting tonight..I will check everyday with my test kits to see what is going on,and will be getting distilled water tommorrow to calibrate them,...
Will keep you posted..

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2010, 12:01 AM Thread Starter
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OK update..didnt get home last unntil late so didnt test,but I tested tonight..I didnt get to store to get distilled water,so havent calibrated tests..BUt here is what I have after bumping up co2 and starting on EI dosing 2 days ago..

NItrate-10ppm
Phos-2.0
PH-6.2-6.4....It was 6.0 and without adding anything it went up..I think it culd of been light I was using to see it at 6.0...calling it 6.2
KH-2.0dk
GH-11dk
Iron-0.5 as opposed to 0.1 chelated iron in tank..


PLants seem to have BOOSTED in growth.Leaves seem to be not hooking so much,if at all on new growth..I have not added in any epsom salt solution..

It seems I was limited on co2 and trace..I kept shooting for 0.1 on iron and thats the least amount one wants..I should be shooting for 0.25 which is where I am at now..


OK,now as to what I have added since the 12th..
4/12-
Added 1-1/12 tsp of potassium
Added 5ppm. solution of potassium nitrate
Added 2ml. fleet
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4/13
Added 15ml. trace and 6ml.iron chelate
Iron and trace mixed @ 1TBS per 250 ml.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4/14
Added 5ppm kno3 and 2 ml. fleet..



Plants looking really good,but spot algae getting a bit thick..will probably cut back on iron dosage to 2 ml....

All for tonight.
Zen

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-16-2010, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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OK,leaves dont seem to be curling,maybe just a tad bit,but nothing like they were,and since EI dosing,plant growth is booming...OH,and I think the reason for my PH going up in the earlier post was due to the addition of fleet for phosphate..

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-17-2010, 05:15 PM
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So the question is was it the fertilizers or co2 that helped or a combination of both? I'm thinking the combination, but I could be wrong since I'm only speculating. Either way, great job zen!

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-17-2010, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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I think a combination of both...But I will also say that after bumping up my co2 to about 6 bublles a sec as opposed to about 2-3 It has definetly hit a good equalibrium..

starting monday I am going to dose EI but only half of what I have been...

Quote:
Originally Posted by macclellan
The Advanced ballast is slightly more advanced than the Workhorse ballast, although not quite as much of a workhorse...
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