[SOLVED]HELP hygrophilia deficiency! - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 10:02 PM Thread Starter
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[SOLVED]HELP hygrophilia deficiency!

Not sure what is causing this deficiency, hygrophilia sunset leaves are whiteish and with green veins and the crypt shows similar symtoms. Help is apreciated.

Tank parameters

Ph 6.8 DEGASSED 7.8
KH 2
GH 5

Lightning finnex stingray 8hrs
dosing with EI macro(zorfox recipe )and micro 14 ml of seachem flourish weekly(1.18 ppm FE)

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Last edited by bluesand; 09-16-2016 at 02:47 AM. Reason: .
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 10:15 PM
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Could be Magnesium. Your Crypt is showing it too. The leaves should be green/dark green all over and now lighter colored leaf with dark veins.
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesand View Post
Not sure what is causing this deficiency, hygrophilia sunset leaves are whiteish and with green veins and the crypt shows similar symtoms. Help is apreciated.

Tank parameters

Ph 6.8 DEGASSED 7.8
KH 2
GH 5

Lightning finnex stingray 8hrs
dosing with EI macro(zorfox recipe )and micro 14 ml of seachem flourish weekly(1.18 ppm FE)
Hi bluesand,

Several things can cause interveinal chlorosis (yellowing between the veins of the leaves) but this looks like a 'classic' case of iron deficiency.

Quote:
Interveinal chlorosis on young leaves.

a. Interveinal chlorosis on young leaves with larger veins only remaining green. Necrotic spots usually absent; however, with extreme deficiencies, young leaves are almost white and may have necrotic margins and tips; necrotic spots may extend inward. potassium, zinc or copper excess can inhibit uptake of iron. High pH may also induce iron deficiency....iron deficiency
Typically iron deficiency shows up on younger leaves. Why? Because unlike many of the nutrients our plants use; iron is considered 'immobile', 'stable' or 'stationary'. This means that once it is used by the plant to make a leaf or stem it cannot be moved to another area of the plant where there may be a deficiency. It likely caused by a combination of too little iron being dosed and the higher PH. A higher PH can make most types of iron that are present more difficult for plants to absorb. Adding more iron may help, but it dropping that PH some will help increase the available iron as well.

Do not expect much improvement in the leaves that are already affected, but watch new growth for improvement once additional iron is added regularly.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 11:06 PM
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Iron toxicity.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 11:30 PM
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Hi All,

I seriously doubt it is iron toxicity. Why? The Zorfox dosing solutions target 0.5ppm of iron. I recall Tom Barr stating he has dosed iron to 0.9ppm and higher. Here is Tom's stance on iron:

Quote:
I've never been able to harm any critter with Fe. Same for plants, most ranges go to 2-8ppm for Fe, even 8ppm will help plants grow very well, 6ppm was the best as far Hydrilla, one of few aquatic plants to have Fe studies done on it.
So there's not that much know, however, plenty of evidence that suggest it's not a likely issue for us relative to common mistakes and effective ranges of dosing for aquatic aquarium plants and critters.

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PortalMasteryRy View Post
Could be Magnesium. Your Crypt is showing it too. The leaves should be green/dark green all over and now lighter colored leaf with dark veins.
I was also thinking that it could be Mg deficiency. My tap water is very hard and im already doing a 90/10 RO mix. I ve read that it is possible that water sources may only contain Ca or Mg. Ive thought on buying some Dolomite. Im just waiting for a conclusion on Seattle_Aquarist journey before making a move.

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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi bluesand,

Several things can cause interveinal chlorosis (yellowing between the veins of the leaves) but this looks like a 'classic' case of iron deficiency.



Typically iron deficiency shows up on younger leaves. Why? Because unlike many of the nutrients our plants use; iron is considered 'immobile', 'stable' or 'stationary'. This means that once it is used by the plant to make a leaf or stem it cannot be moved to another area of the plant where there may be a deficiency. It likely caused by a combination of too little iron being dosed and the higher PH. A higher PH can make most types of iron that are present more difficult for plants to absorb. Adding more iron may help, but it dropping that PH some will help increase the available iron as well.

Do not expect much improvement in the leaves that are already affected, but watch new growth for improvement once additional iron is added regularly.
Guys, i mistyped my micro dosing. Its 1.4 mL of Seachem Flourish weekly ( 0.12 ppm), im dosing based on APC Feltilator recommended dose. Does seachem products have an expiring date? i bought mine 2 years ago. My PH is a constant 6.8 since my fluval don't have a solenoid valve, so i keep it on 24/7. Also should i add more flourish or find another source of iron(i have some iron from GLA)?
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi All,

I seriously doubt it is iron toxicity. Why? The Zorfox dosing solutions target 0.5ppm of iron. I recall Tom Barr stating he has dosed iron to 0.9ppm and higher. Here is Tom's stance on iron:
Do you or anyone else know what the symptoms and stages of iron tox are? Neither does Barr and even his plants suffer from it. So anything Barr states about the safe concentrations should be best ignored.

As for the example of Hydrilla, a known phytoaccumulator capable of absorbing concentrations of heavy metals that would kill most plant species, it should not be used to imply that all aquatic plants are phytoaccumulators and can equally withstand 8mg/L of solution iron. Most of that iron is not utilized for growth or any other physiological purposes and it gives the false impression that the plant grows faster when measured by dry weight.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesand View Post
Guys, i mistyped my micro dosing. Its 1.4 mL of Seachem Flourish weekly ( 0.12 ppm), im dosing based on APC Feltilator recommended dose. Does seachem products have an expiring date? i bought mine 2 years ago. My PH is a constant 6.8 since my fluval don't have a solenoid valve, so i keep it on 24/7. Also should i add more flourish or find another source of iron(i have some iron from GLA)?
Then this may be an iron deficiency. It's best to use a chelate iron supply but without overdosing but the ratios of the other metals matter greatly.
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 12:21 AM
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Oh no not another imagined toxicity. You say toxicity at 1,18 ppm Fe weekly. The OP stated that was a mistake and the actual dose is 0,12 ppm weekly, which is not high at all. Then suddenly the symptoms of toxicity are deficiency. I guess this is another example of hunting for undefined outcomes of trace toxicity and blaming them for all that is wrong ... I would rather read and test what somebody with lots of experience and a degree in Aquatic Biology and a Ph.D. states as safe concentration.

I would also say iron deficiency as it look to affect the new leaves. H. sunset is a fast grower so it needs more nutrients in the solution. If it were me, I would add 1,5x-2x current dose Flourish and wait for improvement, which should be seen in 1-2 days in the new growth. If the pH is high adding a chelated iron suitable for your pH might help it stay in solution longer.

Mg deficiency is most obvious in old leaves as white patches. However a little more Mg does not hurt and can rule out a Mg deficiency. Since you mix with RO, you could add 2-5ppm Mg from MgSO4 (Epsom salt) for example. If you already have hard water why not use that instead of mixing dolomite in RO water ?

It does not appear to be very severe so best to add Fe or Mg and wait for a week or so and then report if anything changed.

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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 12:29 AM
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Hi All,

If you can't refute the logic then defame the source? Sounds sort of like the candidates this year.

As a matter of fact I have seen the symptoms of iron toxicity and read the toxicity threads, and scanned the "Absorption of iron and growth of Hydrilla verticillata" article but the pictures posted by the OP look nothing like the ones I have seen in the toxicity threads. Here are a couple of pictures from one of the toxicity threads.

Notice the uniform light yellow of both the interveinal areas as well as the veins in the younger leaves....nothing like the OP picture


Notice the necrosis of the terminal bud in this picture, the terminal buds of the OP are generating new leaves


Now let's go back to the original diagnosis. Plantex Nutritrace (Previously CSM) mix uses Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) as the source for its Iron. EDTA makes less than 25% if the iron dosed available at [email protected] which is what the user has. So when we dose approximately 0.5ppm of iron and less than 25% of it is available to the plants then 0.125ppm of iron is toxic....I don't think so nor did any of the toxicity threads even come close to that number.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 12:35 AM
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You're ignoring micronutrient ratios which matter far more than any absolute concentration. This has been shown in numerous studies to be the case. Also, so there is a difference between chlorosis due to lack of chlorophyll and chlorosis due to the phototoxic damage to chlorophyll as a result of iron tox.
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesand View Post
Guys, i mistyped my micro dosing. Its 1.4 mL of Seachem Flourish weekly ( 0.12 ppm), im dosing based on APC Feltilator recommended dose. Does seachem products have an expiring date? i bought mine 2 years ago. My PH is a constant 6.8 since my fluval don't have a solenoid valve, so i keep it on 24/7. Also should i add more flourish or find another source of iron(i have some iron from GLA)?
Hi bluesand,

I like the APC Fertilator and use it regularly myself. Unfortunately it has one error according to Tom Barr, it should state the target PPM for iron at 1.0ppm not 0.1ppm. Personally I like to target 0.5ppm of iron unless I see signs of deficiency.

I see you added some additional information concerning your tank PH which does change your available iron from less than 25% to about 90%. Question, are you dosing the CSM+B per Zorfox.s dosing guide plus the Seachem flourish? Are you dosing a total of 0.12ppm of iron?

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
You're ignoring micronutrient ratios which matter far more than any absolute concentration. This has been shown in numerous studies to be the case.
So are we talking about volume ratio, mass ratio , molar ratio, of the elements or the molecules ?
If what you say were true then certain plant species could survive only in very specific water locales and die after a rainfall or some catfish disturbing the substrate nearby and altering the ratio. People around the world use tap water for plant cultivation which has varying base level ratios of micronutrients. Add to this all the different commercial micronutrient fertilizers, each one with a little more of something or the other... Yet you see plant nurseries and healthy plants in aquariums all over the planet. On the other hand, specific absolute concentration of substances have been shown to induce toxicity and have well known LD50.

Plants are able to substitute some traces, are able to store/neutralize others, ignore others and are able to adapt to very different ratios of nutrients. It is a good thing they can do all this as they cannot just stand on their feet and move to a place with more suitable nutrient ratio. I know it is easier to blame what you cannot measure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Also, so there is a difference between chlorosis due to lack of chlorophyll and chlorosis due to the phototoxic damage to chlorophyll as a result of iron tox.
My friend, Chlorosis is a yellowing of leaf tissue due to a lack of chlorophyll ( Chlorosis | Focus on Plant Problems | U of I Extension ) So to rephrase what you said above ...

Lack of chlorophyll due to lack of chlorophyll is different than lack of chlorophyll due to phototoxic damage to chlorophyll. Make much sense ?
I do not know who you are trying to impress. It may have worked in kindergarten ,but this forum still has plenty of people with enough knowledge and experience not to fall for poor debate and dodgy arguments.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 02:08 AM Thread Starter
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Hey Seattle,

I use Zorfox recipe for NPK dosing only. And for trace i fertilize with S. Flourish. I dose 3x a week (1x 0.6ml and 2x 0.4ml). And yes i dose a total of 0.12 ppm of Fe weekly, according to the fertilator.

Should i double the dose and wait?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi bluesand,

I like the APC Fertilator and use it regularly myself. Unfortunately it has one error according to Tom Barr, it should state the target PPM for iron at 1.0ppm not 0.1ppm. Personally I like to target 0.5ppm of iron unless I see signs of deficiency.

I see you added some additional information concerning your tank PH which does change your available iron from less than 25% to about 90%. Question, are you dosing the CSM+B per Zorfox.s dosing guide plus the Seachem flourish? Are you dosing a total of 0.12ppm of iron?
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 02:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi All,

I seriously doubt it is iron toxicity. Why? The Zorfox dosing solutions target 0.5ppm of iron. I recall Tom Barr stating he has dosed iron to 0.9ppm and higher. Here is Tom's stance on iron:
Hey Seattle.....this guy is so good, he was actually able to diagnose toxicity in several threads earlier this year (with his stated 100% certainty) without even seeing a picture (and little to no description either).

Got a problem? Any problem at all? It's toxicity!!!

I'm just saying, more than likely there are some cases where toxicity could be and probably is valid........but for goodness sake when you suggest every single problem ever asked about is due to toxicity, you lose credibility. It's like some sort of strange obsession.


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