Help me with AR mini, what's happening, toxicity? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 02:34 AM Thread Starter
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Help me with AR mini, what's happening, toxicity?

Hello all,

I need some assistance with pinpointing what's going on with my AR. First off let me say I'm still a noob at dosing and spotting signs of toxicities and deficiencies. So the pick below is of my AR mini which has been in the tank from the start which has been about 3 months. It grows but as you can see there are really darks portions to some of the leaves that almost looks burnt. Also some of the new growth comes out crinkled and deformed. Any help would be appreciated.

Water parameters are as follows

Tank - 40B
Ph- 6.8 degassed, 6.0 with co2
Gh - 6
Kh - 6
No3 - 40ppm
Po4 - 5ppm (have a hard time with test as I'm always unsure of the color)
EI dosing:
Kno3 - 1/4tsp 3x week
Po4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
K2so4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
Csm+b - 1/16tsp 3x week
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Last edited by Nlewis; 01-03-2017 at 01:55 AM.
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post #2 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 07:24 AM
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Help me with AR mini, what's happening, toxicity?

Are other plants showing the same issue?

AR mini for some reason i have found it to be very sensitive to an over abundance of micros in the water column.

From the picture, it appears that most if not all the "damage" is on the new leaves. Hence, we can narrow it down to an immobile nutrient deficiency.

Because the new leaves appear to be stunt and/or twisting this is an indication of either calcium and/or boron (planted CSM+B) deficiency.

You mentioned that your tank's water has a general hardness of 6 degrees.

The GH results don't specified the concentrations for both Ca (Calcium) and Mg (magnesium).

To get a better idea, you could purchase a Ca kit and find out what's the concentration for Ca and using your GH reading, you can determine each Ca and Mg level.

Or, you could add enough of GH booster to eliminate any deficiency of Ca and/or Mg.

You may be adding too much micros but then again, other plants may do bad if this is decreased.

Again, from my personal experience, ar mini, is one of those plants that doesn't like high micro levels.

Hopefully other folks can chime in.

I may also be wrong with some of the information I shared...I'm simply giving you my understanding of what could be the issue.





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post #3 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
Are other plants showing the same issue?

AR mini for some reason i have found it to be very sensitive to an over abundance of micros in the water column.

From the picture, it appears that most if not all the "damage" is on the new leaves. Hence, we can narrow it down to an immobile nutrient deficiency.

Because the new leaves appear to be stunt and/or twisting this is an indication of either calcium and/or boron (planted CSM+B) deficiency.

You mentioned that your tank's water has a general hardness of 6 degrees.

The GH results don't specified the concentrations for both Ca (Calcium) and Mg (magnesium).

To get a better idea, you could purchase a Ca kit and find out what's the concentration for Ca and using your GH reading, you can determine each Ca and Mg level.

Or, you could add enough of GH booster to eliminate any deficiency of Ca and/or Mg.

You may be adding too much micros but then again, other plants may do bad if this is decreased.

Again, from my personal experience, ar mini, is one of those plants that doesn't like high micro levels.

Hopefully other folks can chime in.

I may also be wrong with some of the information I shared...I'm simply giving you my understanding of what could be the issue.





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That's one thing I forgot in the original post, is that I started adding gh booster over a month ago. Most of the other plants do great. I've had issues with rotala stunting and have since removed the plants. Some of my ludwigia do have some twisted leaves. This week I decided to reduce my micros and cut it in half. When doing this I noticed the ludwigia red perk up. I don't have enough experience yet with fertilizers so I might just need to play around with it, I don't know.

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post #4 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 08:56 PM
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Adding the EI level fert's with GH booster, we can rule out nutrient deficiency. However it does look like the AR in the pic is both crowded and shaded, two things it doesn't like. Some better light and room to breath might show some improvement.
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post #5 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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Adding the EI level fert's with GH booster, we can rule out nutrient deficiency. However it does look like the AR in the pic is both crowded and shaded, two things it doesn't like. Some better light and room to breath might show some improvement.
It gets plenty of light. I turned the front light off to take the picture because of the glare.

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post #6 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-25-2016, 09:31 PM
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I wasn't saying that based on the photo not appearing bright (really tough to say anything about light levels from a photo), but on the fact that the AR is cramped and has plants which appear to be overhanging it (again, sort of tough to tell from the pic). If it is in fact getting good direct light, the crowding could still be an issue. Something to think about, in addition to the more conservative micro dose.
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post #7 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 05:28 AM
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Certainly looks like a toxicity to me. Based on the given info, about the only deficiency it could be is CO2. LRJ has a good point, it is definitely too crowded. Plants compete for co2 just like nutrients. Give some room between plant groups and make sure the area gets adequate flow.

Also looks like it's due for a good trim. AR needs aggressive pruning. It is a tough plant, you can be merciless with it and it will come right back. I'd pinch all those bad leaves off, whole tops, whatever, all of it. None of that damage is going to correct itself, only new growth will tell the tale.

Maybe even uproot and separate the good plants from the bad ones. Probably some baby sprouts underneath all that still in good shape. Toss all the bad and replant the good ones, spreading them out a little.

Regarding toxicity, you are dosing micros at .1 ppm Fe...approximately? That is perfectly favorable for lots of folks, but it would definitely be too much for my tanks. Dont ask me why.

If the Ludwigia perked up when you reduced micros, that for me would be a concrete sign I was dosing too much. What I would do is a couple back to back 70-80% water changes, two days in a row with no dosing, then skip a couple doses of micros, then start back around 1/4-1/3 or so previous levels.

You'll know right away if its a toxicity because there'll be an immediate positive response after just a few days. If nothing happens after a week, or things get worse, then you can rule toxicity out and move on to something else.

Another thing, are you measuring out the csmb in 1/16 tsp doses? Be better to mix up a solution something like 500ml/5ml doses. Because csmb is comprised of several different things, and the chances of getting everything in the right proportion using such small amounts is slim. It is really made for hydroponics to treat 100s or 1000s of gallons at a time.


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Last edited by burr740; 06-26-2016 at 05:40 AM. Reason: .
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post #8 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 07:49 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Certainly looks like a toxicity to me. Based on the given info, about the only deficiency it could be is CO2. LRJ has a good point, it is definitely too crowded. Plants compete for co2 just like nutrients. Give some room between plant groups and make sure the area gets adequate flow.

Also looks like it's due for a good trim. AR needs aggressive pruning. It is a tough plant, you can be merciless with it and it will come right back. I'd pinch all those bad leaves off, whole tops, whatever, all of it. None of that damage is going to correct itself, only new growth will tell the tale.

Maybe even uproot and separate the good plants from the bad ones. Probably some baby sprouts underneath all that still in good shape. Toss all the bad and replant the good ones, spreading them out a little.

Regarding toxicity, you are dosing micros at .1 ppm Fe...approximately? That is perfectly favorable for lots of folks, but it would definitely be too much for my tanks. Dont ask me why.

If the Ludwigia perked up when you reduced micros, that for me would be a concrete sign I was dosing too much. What I would do is a couple back to back 70-80% water changes, two days in a row with no dosing, then skip a couple doses of micros, then start back around 1/4-1/3 or so previous levels.

You'll know right away if its a toxicity because there'll be an immediate positive response after just a few days. If nothing happens after a week, or things get worse, then you can rule toxicity out and move on to something else.

Another thing, are you measuring out the csmb in 1/16 tsp doses? Be better to mix up a solution something like 500ml/5ml doses. Because csmb is comprised of several different things, and the chances of getting everything in the right proportion using such small amounts is slim. It is really made for hydroponics to treat 100s or 1000s of gallons at a time.
Well tomorrow is maintenance day, so I will hack down the AR and replant. I do have some in a low tank tank that looks great I can steal some from.

Regarding the back to back water changes. What do you think about just doing my 50 tomorrow and just not dosing micros at all this week?
It's hard on my fish if I do greater than 50% wc's do to the co2 content coming out of the tap. And yes I'm measuring all my doses daily.

Just a noob


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post #9 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Nlewis View Post
Regarding the back to back water changes. What do you think about just doing my 50 tomorrow and just not dosing micros at all this week?
It's hard on my fish if I do greater than 50% wc's do to the co2 content coming out of the tap. And yes I'm measuring all my doses daily.
That'll work too, it just wouldnt reset the nutrient levels as well as two large back to backs. But you may not even need to do this.

It is starting to sound like more of a CO2/flow issue. If your fish gas that easy, then you need to find ways to get more oxygen in the tank. Doing so will let the livestock to be comfortable at much higher CO2 levels. It is also good for plants and bacteria and the whole system. Increase circulation and get more surface agitation. Maybe add a small powerhead like the Koralia 240 positioned near the surface.

.8 PH drop isnt much to begin with. Better to shoot for a full point at the very least.

The combination of being crowded, with poor flow, and low CO2 to begin will equal a very unhappy plant(s).

You may be dosing too much micros, but until the CO2 gets right it's going to be like playing whack-a-mole no matter what you do. My advice is to fix the CO2 first.
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Last edited by burr740; 06-26-2016 at 04:40 PM. Reason: .
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post #10 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
That'll work too, it just wouldnt reset the nutrient levels as well as two large back to backs. But you may not even need to do this.

It is starting to sound like more of a CO2/flow issue. If your fish gas that easy, then you need to find ways to get more oxygen in the tank. Doing so will let the livestock to be comfortable at much higher CO2 levels. It is also good for plants and bacteria and the whole system. Increase circulation and get more surface agitation. Maybe add a small powerhead like the Koralia 240 positioned near the surface.

.8 PH drop isnt much to begin with. Better to shoot for a full point at the very least.

The combination of being crowded, with poor flow, and low CO2 to begin will equal a very unhappy plant(s).

You may be dosing too much micros, but until the CO2 gets right it's going to be like playing whack-a-mole no matter what you do. My advice is to fix the CO2 first.
Short of buying a power head, do you think if I left my skimmer on all the time would this to the same thing?

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post #11 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 07:56 PM
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bound to help, what kind of skimmer?


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post #12 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 08:06 PM
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Point the outlet of your filter slightly towards the surface and run the skimmer...that'll create more than enough surface movement.


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post #13 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-26-2016, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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bound to help, what kind of skimmer?
Eheim 350

Alright, I did my Sunday maintenance and did a major trim. I pulled all the AR and got out as many good plantlets that I could. I bumped the co2 up but for right now I'm going to leave the flow alone. I feel the flow is good, I have a 2217 running and I can see the flow all throughout the tank. So my plan of action this week, is not dosing micros and see what happens. I could order a 500ml dosing bottle if someone could give me some aid as in the measurement of csmb to make up the solution. Oh, I also have about 25 stems of blyxa I pulled out and don't know what to do with.

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Last edited by Darkblade48; 06-27-2016 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts
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post #14 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-27-2016, 03:33 AM
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This is a good calculator for dosing amounts. It will tell you what to mix in a solution for a certain ppm - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

Just plug in your values and additional boxes will appear. I try to calculate for actual water, not tank size.

"DIY" means mixing your own. "Pre-mixed" means ready made products like Flourish, etc.

When the box "I am calculating for" appears -> select "dose to reach a target" Then enter whatever ppm you want the dose to be.

Play around with it some. It's not as complicated as it looks the first time you see it.


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post #15 of 57 (permalink) Old 06-27-2016, 04:53 PM
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Do you use and kind of drop checker? PH at 6.0 with a KH around 6 would yeild 180ppm CO2 (target should be 30ppm;ish).
Doubt anything would survive in those levels. Must have something else affecting your PH in a rather drastic way?

Also looking at rotala butterfly you seem to underdose CSM+B somewhat already for a 40G you should be adding 1/8 tsp + 1/16 tsp + 1/32 tsp of CSMB every other day. Though following rotalas calcs you will always overdose quite much, not sure why it is this way though.


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