Csm+b at 7.6ph - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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Csm+b at 7.6ph

How long does csm+b last in the aquarium at a ph of 7.6? I recently switched to lower tech/light in my 20long and am looking into doing ei low light dosing and I have read that iron can become unusable pretty quickly at a higher ph. I have a heavy plant load at around 50-60 par and am wondering the best way to dose micros.

Thanks for any input
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 04:35 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

It is impossible to say 'how long will it last' that would depend upon the usage of the plants in your tank.

As for the 'availability' of iron you are correct that PH and the type of chelation effects the amount of iron available to plants. The Plantex Nutritrace (Previously CSM) mix uses Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) as the source for its Iron and it makes up 7% of the mix. EDTA chelated iron is better than citrates of iron, or HEDTA chelated iron with regards to availability however at a PH of 7.6 it is likely the amount of available iron in the mix is reduced by over 50%.

Plantex Nutritrace (CSM) micronutrient mix (where's the B (Boron)? Hopefully added by the secondary supplier such as aquariumfertilizer.com, greenleaf aquarium, Bob's Tropical, or Nicolog (a user on this site).

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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I have read up on csm not having boron but I thought I read that the whole point of +b was that it is now added? I am trying to keep a relatively constant supply of iron to the plants and am wondering beyond the 50% less availability, does it in anyway become less available with time? Is it ok to dose this every 1-2 weeks or will the iron become unavailable beyond the initial reduction due to the ph? The csm+b was purchased from greenleafaquariums.com about 1 year ago or so. The tank is medium light low tech with a high plant mass. I think I'm going to start dosing Excell again to help aid, even minimally, to carbon availability and help reduce water change co2 shock. I have noticed without co2 water changes seem to help bba thrive
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Willcooper View Post
I have read up on csm not having boron but I thought I read that the whole point of +b was that it is now added? I am trying to keep a relatively constant supply of iron to the plants and am wondering beyond the 50% less availability, does it in anyway become less available with time? Is it ok to dose this every 1-2 weeks or will the iron become unavailable beyond the initial reduction due to the ph? The csm+b was purchased from greenleafaquariums.com about 1 year ago or so. The tank is medium light low tech with a high plant mass. I think I'm going to start dosing Excell again to help aid, even minimally, to carbon availability and help reduce water change co2 shock. I have noticed without co2 water changes seem to help bba thrive
Hi Willcooper,

Yes, the boron should be added by the secondary suppliers.

The iron in CSM is Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) which contains an Fe2+ iron molecule that is easily utilized by plants. However, as the PH increases above PH 6.0 more and more of the ions in the Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) become Fe3+ ions (which are basically insoluble and much more difficult for plants to utilize). I do not believe time effects the availability of Fe ions. they are there until they are used up. Dosing micronutrients / iron on a bi-weekly basis will likely result in either plant nutrient toxicity (because so much is dosed to try and last two weeks) or plant nutrient deficiency (normal dose is exhausted well before next dose is given.

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 10:11 PM Thread Starter
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Ok the toxicity makes sense. What I'm trying to do is find a dosing method that makes sense for this tank. I get 5-15/20 ppm of nitrate out of the tap and I always have a decent nitrate reading, 10-30ish. I would like to do a lower tech ei method in conjunction with api co2 booster. I have potassium sulphate to give the potassium I need since I won't be dosing kno3 and I dose phosphate which will be a source for potassium as well, as well as csm+b. I have had no luck finding a calculator where I can substitute kno3 out of the solution that's inline with a lower ei regimend. Thoughts on how to calculate this? I can dry dose using a gram scale (don't have super small measuring spoons yet).
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 10:24 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

I may be able to help. Please provide the following and I will provide dosages:
Tank Gallons
Water Gallons (typically .8 X tank volume with 3" substrate)
Target Nitrate Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Potassium Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Phosphate Level (typ 0.5-2.0ppm)
Target Mg Level (typ 2-5ppm)
Target Ca Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Fe Level (typ 0.1-0.9ppm)

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Willcooper,

I may be able to help. Please provide the following and I will provide dosages:
Tank Gallons
Water Gallons (typically .8 X tank volume with 3" substrate)
Target Nitrate Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Potassium Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Phosphate Level (typ 0.5-2.0ppm)
Target Mg Level (typ 2-5ppm)
Target Ca Level (typ 10-30ppm)
Target Fe Level (typ 0.1-0.9ppm)
I'll rely on your judgement for target levels.
Tank: 20long
2" substrate
Medium-heavy planting
60 par
Api co2 booster

Gh 11
Kh 6
I don't have ca/mg tests

Currently the nitrate levels are too high (80ppm roughly) which is why I wanted to pick up co2 booster so I can do weekly water changes to keep nitrate levels down while trying to maintain carbon levels so I'm not just creating more algae (bba) problems.

Based on readings the recommendations are for lower light ei dosing (seems to be 1/3 normal ei targets)
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-20-2016, 10:52 PM
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Hi Willcooper,

Here are your recommended dosing levels for EI dosing to the Target PPM levels. Since you do not want to add nitrates instead of dosing 1/8 tsp KNO3 3X per week (3/8 tsp 1X week) you can dose 3/32 tsp of K2SO4 3X per week (1/4 tsp 1X week) and achieve the same 15ppm of potassium (K). Please do monitor your nitrate levels so they do not drop too low.


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Last edited by Seattle_Aquarist; 06-20-2016 at 11:12 PM. Reason: added info
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-21-2016, 01:57 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Willcooper,

Here are your recommended dosing levels for EI dosing to the Target PPM levels. Since you do not want to add nitrates instead of dosing 1/8 tsp KNO3 3X per week (3/8 tsp 1X week) you can dose 3/32 tsp of K2SO4 3X per week (1/4 tsp 1X week) and achieve the same 15ppm of potassium (K). Please do monitor your nitrate levels so they do not drop too low.

Thanks for the info. The pic says "loading image" for forever. Sometimes I really hate the mobile version lol. I'll keep an eye on nitrates. It's weird, when I was injecting co2 with heavy ei dosing, I could barely keep nitrates in there now that I've stopped and have only been dosing once a week I get really high levels. This has been for about 3 weeks now. I get the why, I just didn't realize they would build up like this

Last edited by Willcooper; 06-21-2016 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Removed question
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 06-23-2016, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
The iron in CSM is Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) which contains an Fe2+ iron molecule that is easily utilized by plants. However, as the PH increases above PH 6.0 more and more of the ions in the Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) become Fe3+ ions (which are basically insoluble and much more difficult for plants to utilize).
The ferric part in Sodium ferric ethylenediaminetetraacetate implies Fe+++ and not Fe++.
As long as the Fe is chelated it doesn't really matter for plants if it is Fe++ or Fe+++.
What does matter in aquarium situations is the fact that Fe++ has a lower stability constant than Fe+++ if it is chelated to EDTA, and makes it less suitable for aquarium use.
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