Help - am I killing my japonica shrimp with PMDD? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 02:13 AM Thread Starter
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Help - am I killing my japonica shrimp with PMDD?

Hi there--

I'm an old-time aquarium keeper but new to the plant world. I just planted a mature tank yesterday and started dosing a PMDD solution and excel (I have ~30 ppm of diy CO2 as well). Suddenly my amano shrimp seem to be dying. The fish are 100% fine. I imagine it's the copper from the CSM+B, but others seem to be having no problem with CSM and shrimp. Have I calculated my dosages way wrong? Here's what I added:

PMDD--I bought the PMDD pre-mix from aquariumfertilizer.com, which is supposed to be equal parts KNO3, MGSO4, K2SO4 and CSM+B. I added two tablespoons of that to 250 ml of tap water. The package recommended 1-4 drops of that solution per gallon of aquarium per day. So I dosed 1 ml (i.e. 20 drops) yesterday and this morning.

Excel--I dosed it once at the recommended level for a water change. That's it.

If I'm dosing right and killing the shrimp anyway, well, that's no good but at least it's not my mistake. But am I somehow way off by an order of magnitude somewhere?
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 03:28 AM
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how big is your tank? also when i got my pmdd the contents were not mixed up that well so i put it in a larger bag and mix it up before i made the solution. then again if you made the whole one pound bag then it doesnt really matter if you mixed the dry up bc it all went into the same solution. I only mix a cup of liquid at a time. I have amano shrimp with no problem. I also only add one to 2 drops pmdd a gallon and excel once a day w/ co2. -Bradley
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 03:45 AM
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it's the excel... There are papers out that the chemical deforms and kill crustacean babies, probably not all that great for adults either.

I raise daphnia and I do water changes from my old tank. I had forgotten I dosed excel in my main tank to get rid of algae. I only changed 1/5 of the water and noticed a slight die off.

If you raise shrimps, stick with CO2.


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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 07:32 AM
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Do you have references for these papers? I haven't ever heard of this before and I'd like to read about these results. I dose excel in all my tanks which have amano, ghost shrimp, rcs, and african filter shrimp and I certainly haven't noticed any issues at all. My RCS and ghost shrimp multiply like rabbits.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 02:02 PM Thread Starter
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The tank is a 20 high, filtered with a aquaclear 30 and a little hagen elite which is also the CO2 diffuser. This forum and others certainly seem to report mixed views about the compatibility of excel, CSM+B, and shrimp. I guess that if I am dosing PMDD correctly, I am going to keep doing that and hope the shrimp survive. I will lay off the excel though.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-30-2010, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sns26 View Post
The tank is a 20 high, filtered with a aquaclear 30 and a little hagen elite which is also the CO2 diffuser. This forum and others certainly seem to report mixed views about the compatibility of excel, CSM+B, and shrimp. I guess that if I am dosing PMDD correctly, I am going to keep doing that and hope the shrimp survive. I will lay off the excel though.
If I were you I should have changed 50% water before dosing PMDD, regarding CSM+B, it has very little copper contain .10%. so this won't kill any shrimps! Excel won't kill shrimp amanos unless you overdose 3X....

Cheers!!!
J
"The future's uncertain, and the end is always near."
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottso View Post
Do you have references for these papers? I haven't ever heard of this before and I'd like to read about these results. I dose excel in all my tanks which have amano, ghost shrimp, rcs, and african filter shrimp and I certainly haven't noticed any issues at all. My RCS and ghost shrimp multiply like rabbits.
this is the abstract.. I posted the full paper sometime back but I can't find it.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...493681e8875654


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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2010, 01:03 AM
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I have the full article; if anyone requires it, please send me a PM with your e-mail address and I can send it to you.

Anthony


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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2010, 02:16 AM
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I don't know about crustacean babies since I don't breed shrimp but I do keep amanos in a tank that gets dosed daily with Excel and dosed every other day with CSM+B.

I don't think your shrimp death has anything to do with Excel or PMDD. You indicated that you "planted a mature tank yesterday". My guess is that when you added the plants you disturbed a good portion of the substrate and released a lot of mulm and gunk into the water column. It is always a good idea to do a 50% water change after large disturbances to the substrate. You probably pulled up a lot of bacteria and toxins. Shrimp tend to be more sensitive to toxins (and CO2) than most fish.

Assuming you mixed the PMDD correctly I would not be concerned about dosing the tank or using Excel at the recommended dosage.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2010, 04:42 AM
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That article specifically mentions that the effect is when combined with some other substance from DETERGENT.

Excel used at recommended dose is safe for inverts

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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2010, 03:31 PM
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Check NOAA:

http://www.glerl.noaa.gov/pubs/fullt...5/20050003.pdf

It's free and tax payer based open access, much like Libraries and other publicly funded institutions. Also where we get our weather etc.

Lots more toxic than any nutrient other than perhaps copper and a few other trace metals. But folks seem to have little issue double dosing(Adding 4ppm or more- see the dose response graph) and then often cite myths for why we should try and minimize NO3 or K or PO4 dosing




Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-07-2010, 10:27 PM Thread Starter
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For what it is worth...

I did a water change, stopped using Excel and switched to using Flourish for my traces rather than CSM+B. And the net result is that my shrimp appear to be much, much, happier. Where they were lying on their side and kicking in spasms, now they are wandering around grazing on detritus as they should be.

Now, it's possible that the water change removed some other contaminant. For instance, nitrates. But NO3 in the tank now is high now (50 ppm) too.

If I were more willing to sacrifice japonicas to science, I would dose with Excel and watch their reaction, water change, then dose with CSM+B and watch again. But I am getting good growth with ~30ppm CO2 and Flourish, and my wife and kids adore the shrimp, so I will not bother.

By the way, since Tom Barr has posted here, I will mention that I've gone over to EI (with Flourish) instead of PMDD (with CSM+B). But NO3 seems high at the end of the week (50 ppm) while PO4 seems right (1 ppm). Should I cut back on the NO3 or just not worry about it in the spirit of the EI method?
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