Question about iron supplementation - The Planted Tank Forum
 7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Question about iron supplementation

I have a 15 gal. moderately planted tank, and it appears that some of the plants are tuning white. I also have a number of red plants in the aquarium as well.

At present I am dosing PPS-PRO with Seachem Flourish Excel daily.

I want to know whether I should add chelated iron to my micro solution to increase daily concentrations of Fe? If you have any additional questions feel free to ask!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JuanSan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 04:54 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
I have a 15 gal. moderately planted tank, and it appears that some of the plants are tuning white. I also have a number of red plants in the aquarium as well.

At present I am dosing PPS-PRO with Seachem Flourish Excel daily.

I want to know whether I should add chelated iron to my micro solution to increase daily concentrations of Fe? If you have any additional questions feel free to ask!
Hi JuanSan,

PPS-Pro micro solution uses CSM+B diluted into a solution if I remember correctly. CSM+B does have some iron in it.

By saying your leaves are turning 'white' can you be a bit more descriptive please? Is the whole leaf showing the problem, just the area of the leaves between the veins of the leaves showing the problem, are the leaf tips bending downwards, is the leaf curling lengthwise, unusual waves in the leaves? What type of light and wattage do you have on your tank and what is your photoperiod?
Thanks,
-Roy

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi JuanSan,

PPS-Pro micro solution uses CSM+B diluted into a solution if I remember correctly. CSM+B does have some iron in it.

By saying your leaves are turning 'white' can you be a bit more descriptive please? Is the whole leaf showing the problem, just the area of the leaves between the veins of the leaves showing the problem, are the leaf tips bending downwards, is the leaf curling lengthwise, unusual waves in the leaves? What type of light and wattage do you have on your tank and what is your photoperiod?
Thanks,
-Roy
Lighting
24" Finnex Planted+
18" Finnx Ray 2 DS

These lights are on a 2 inch riser that I custom built.

Photoperiod: 6 hours.

What the plants are doing? See attached pictures.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5285.jpg
Views:	46
Size:	110.4 KB
ID:	641905  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_5284.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	146.9 KB
ID:	641913  



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JuanSan is offline  
 
post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 10:43 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
Lighting
24" Finnex Planted+
18" Finnx Ray 2 DS

These lights are on a 2 inch riser that I custom built.

Photoperiod: 6 hours.

What the plants are doing? See attached pictures.
Hi JuanSan,

What are you doing - cooking those poor plants?? lol

Serious that is a L-O-T of light on top of a 13" tall tank; especially without CO2. Excel / glutaraldehyde will provide some carbon but no where near what you will need with a light intensity of about PAR = 165 - 170 (72 + 95) (assuming 2 inch riser and 3" of substrate). Also, PPS-Pro dosing (per the instructions) is never going to provide sufficient nutrients for that amount of light.

If it were me I would: 1) do a 50% water change; 2) immediately start dosing per the Estimative Index (IE) method; and 3) remove the Ray2 from the tank, and either cut the light back on the Planted+ either by adjusting the output of the fixture or if that is not possible then a shorter photoperiod.

Give the plants a week or two and see if they don't respond to less sun-like conditions. lol Let us know how it goes!
-Roy

10 gallon; 12" tall; [email protected]; no Co2 but dosing Excel and EI

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 11:03 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
The plants are dieing from an extreme amount of overkill on the light.
What adjustments are there on the planted+ fixture?
The RayII is way too strong to be on that small(short) of a tank and likely
should never be on any tank that isn't at least 20" tall. What does the DS stand for
BTW because it may be less powerful than a regular RayII.
There is a small handful of plants around that can grow fast enough to keep
the algae off at very high PAR. The rest of the plants just can't grow fast enough
to be algae free under extremely high light such as you have in there.
60-80 PAR is more than most tanks can take and still remain algae free.
If you check the PAR rating on the Planted+ and find it to put out PAR in that
range at the depth of your tank then just get rid of the RayII completely.
If it doesn't get higher than 40(50 would be enough) PAR at the depth of
your tank then perhaps you can remove the Planted+ and filter the light from
RayII with some window screen(fiberglass) to tone it down. Use the chart you
already have on the RayII and take off 30-35% from the number it gives at the
depth of your tank. This will tell you how much one piece of fiberglass window screen will reduce the PAR. If it gets below 80 then you are good to go. If it does not
you will need to raise the fixture more.
AWolf and AWolf like this.

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
Raymond S. is offline  
post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 11:54 PM
Banned
 
PTrader: (73/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 5,942
I thought you had co2 on this
houseofcards is offline  
post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-11-2016, 11:57 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi JuanSan,

What are you doing - cooking those poor plants?? lol

Serious that is a L-O-T of light on top of a 13" tall tank; especially without CO2. Excel / glutaraldehyde will provide some carbon but no where near what you will need with a light intensity of about PAR = 165 - 170 (72 + 95) (assuming 2 inch riser and 3" of substrate). Also, PPS-Pro dosing (per the instructions) is never going to provide sufficient nutrients for that amount of light.

If it were me I would: 1) do a 50% water change; 2) immediately start dosing per the Estimative Index (IE) method; and 3) remove the Ray2 from the tank, and either cut the light back on the Planted+ either by adjusting the output of the fixture or if that is not possible then a shorter photoperiod.

Give the plants a week or two and see if they don't respond to less sun-like conditions. lol Let us know how it goes!
-Roy

10 gallon; 12" tall; [email protected]; no Co2 but dosing Excel and EI
This is my current setup:


CURRENT SETUP (05/13/2016)

Tank
15g Aqueon (24"x12"x12")

Parameters
Temp 75 F
pH ~7.0
NH3 ~0-.125 ppm
NO2 ~ 0 ppm
NO3 ~10-15 ppm
GH 15 dGH (~265ppm)
KH 11 dKH (~196.9 ppm)
PO4 ~.8 mg/L
Silicates ~18.5 mg/L

Lighting
24" Finnex Planted+
18" Finnx Ray 2 DS

These lights are on a 2 inch riser that I custom built.

CO2
5# tank
GLA GRO-1 CO2 REGULATOR Regulator
GLA inline CO2 diffuser on outlet pipe
Atomic Check valve

Filter
Eheim 2232

Heater
Eheim Jager 75W

Filter Pipes
CAL AQUA LABS - EFFLUX F2 - 13MM
CAL AQUA LABS - INFLUX X2S - 13MM

Substrate
Flourite and Carib Sea Eco-Complete mix

Fauna
5x Cardinia multidenta 'Amano Shrimp'
2x Puntius titteya, 'Cherry Barb'
3x Otocinclus Catfish


Flora
Foreground: Hemianthus callitrichoides, 'Dwarf Baby Tears', staurogyne repens

Midground: Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini', and Blyxa japoinica

Background: Vallisneria spiralis, 'Straight vallisneria', Rotala macrandra mini type 4

Hardscape
Seiryu Stone (Yang Stone)

Ferts:

GLA PPS-Pro Fertilizer

Seachem Flourish Excel

CO2 turns on 2 hours before lights turn on and off one hour before lights turn off. Lights are on a 6 hour cycle. Daily Fertilization at standard PPS-PRO levels.

I hope this clarifies some of the confusion I apologize. Do I still need to remove the Ray 2 for these high light plants? 33% water changes weekly.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
I thought you had co2 on this
I do! Sorry for the confusion. See response to Seattle_Aquarist for current setup.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
The plants are dieing from an extreme amount of overkill on the light.
What adjustments are there on the planted+ fixture?
The RayII is way too strong to be on that small(short) of a tank and likely
should never be on any tank that isn't at least 20" tall. What does the DS stand for
BTW because it may be less powerful than a regular RayII.
There is a small handful of plants around that can grow fast enough to keep
the algae off at very high PAR. The rest of the plants just can't grow fast enough
to be algae free under extremely high light such as you have in there.
60-80 PAR is more than most tanks can take and still remain algae free.
If you check the PAR rating on the Planted+ and find it to put out PAR in that
range at the depth of your tank then just get rid of the RayII completely.
If it doesn't get higher than 40(50 would be enough) PAR at the depth of
your tank then perhaps you can remove the Planted+ and filter the light from
RayII with some window screen(fiberglass) to tone it down. Use the chart you
already have on the RayII and take off 30-35% from the number it gives at the
depth of your tank. This will tell you how much one piece of fiberglass window screen will reduce the PAR. If it gets below 80 then you are good to go. If it does not
you will need to raise the fixture more.

Thank you for the suggestion. I have thought about this as well. I have the link to the PAR data on the Ray2 and the Planted+. But my concern is that I will not have enough light to grow the DBTs. I have attached a profile of my tank to further clarify what and how I am running it. I hope this helps! Based on the newly given information, will I still need to take off one of the lights?
Here is a link to the Ray 2 light that I that I had for my old tank: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
JuanSan is offline  
post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 12:15 AM
Banned
 
PTrader: (73/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 5,942
I wouldn't worry about the Iron. You need to get rid of the algae so the plants can grow. If ferts, co2 are there it's most likely just too much light to deal with as others have mentioned. You probably don't need both. Did you start the setup with 5-6 hrs and do 50% WC on a regular weekly basis?
Raymond S. and Raymond S. like this.
houseofcards is offline  
post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 12:22 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,594
Hi JuanSan,

Thank you for clarifying your equipment and water parameters. As for your water your NO3 looks good, the PO4 is a little low, and based upon your dGH I would assume you have sufficient Ca and Mg in your tap water. Question, does your PPS-Pro dosing include K2SO4?

Based upon the pictures, and your description of your equipment, I stand by the recommendations I made before with the possible exception of changing from PPS-Pro to EI. Light intensity and/or duration is just excessive for the size and depth of your tank.
Raymond S. and Raymond S. like this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 12:23 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Raymond S.'s Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hot Springs Ar. 71901
Posts: 5,934
Having/using injected CO2 does not remove any restrictions on how much light is
needed and how much is excess. Up to a certain amount of the energy the light is
placing into the tank is being used by the plants to grow. Once you exceed that
amount the algae will be glad to take in that energy for you. Still happens if
it's above or below the amount the plants can/will use. But plants(some)give off
chemicals that inhibit algae growth(a thread about a year ago gave a list from
a scientific study showing which ones do this) and when you add too much light the algae outproduces the chemicals that the plants are producing which inhibit the algae.
A balancing act that we create because it usually doesn't happen in nature.

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
Raymond S. is offline  
post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 06:24 AM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
I wouldn't worry about the Iron. You need to get rid of the algae so the plants can grow. If ferts, co2 are there it's most likely just too much light to deal with as others have mentioned. You probably don't need both. Did you start the setup with 5-6 hrs and do 50% WC on a regular weekly basis?
Fair enough I will take off the Ray 2 tonight then and see how it goes. Yes i have followed your reccomendations of lighting peruods and water changes since setup. Should i modify this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi JuanSan,

Thank you for clarifying your equipment and water parameters. As for your water your NO3 looks good, the PO4 is a little low, and based upon your dGH I would assume you have sufficient Ca and Mg in your tap water. Question, does your PPS-Pro dosing include K2SO4?

Based upon the pictures, and your description of your equipment, I stand by the recommendations I made before with the possible exception of changing from PPS-Pro to EI. Light intensity and/or duration is just excessive for the size and depth of your tank.
Ill follow your reccomendations and see how it goes in a week. Yes the pps-pro does dose k2so4. Do you think thati should increase the lighting cycle now that i will go down to one light or leave it at 6 hours for now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond
S.;9310753
Having/using injected CO2 does not remove any restrictions on how much light is
needed and how much is excess. Up to a certain amount of the energy the light is
placing into the tank is being used by the plants to grow. Once you exceed that
amount the algae will be glad to take in that energy for you. Still happens if
it's above or below the amount the plants can/will use. But plants(some)give off
chemicals that inhibit algae growth(a thread about a year ago gave a list from
a scientific study showing which ones do this) and when you add too much light the algae outproduces the chemicals that the plants are producing which inhibit the algae.
A balancing act that we create because it usually doesn't happen in nature.
That makes too much sense and i have been monitoring the other two criterion so meticulously i never thought that too much light would be the issue. Can you send me a link to that paper i love reading about stuff like this! Thanks again!
JuanSan is offline  
post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 03:58 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
I'll follow your recommendations and see how it goes in a week. Yes the pps-pro does dose k2so4. Do you think that i should increase the lighting cycle now that i will go down to one light or leave it at 6 hours for now?
Hi JuanSan,

I would certainly not increase the lighting cycle, in fact even with the removal of the RAYII you may still have to reduce the lighting cycle to achieve some degree of balance. I believe I said 'a week or two', please don't expect the results of the change in lighting to show overnight results.
Raymond S. and Raymond S. like this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 06:23 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
I'll follow your recommendations and see how it goes in a week. Yes the pps-pro does dose k2so4. Do you think that i should increase the lighting cycle now that i will go down to one light or leave it at 6 hours for now?
Hi JuanSan,

I would certainly not increase the lighting cycle, in fact even with the removal of the RAYII you may still have to reduce the lighting cycle to achieve some degree of balance. I believe I said 'a week or two', please don't expect the results of the change in lighting to show overnight results.
Hi there!

Thank you for all of your help! I will keep that in mind. Just gave the tank a thorough cleaning and will eagerly await knocking this algae down! I have one additional question. As you can see my water is pretty hard. I have an rodi system, but wanted to know when the appropriate time would be to cut in a 50:50 rodi to well water for my weekly water changes.
JuanSan is offline  
post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 07:04 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
Hi there!

Thank you for all of your help! I will keep that in mind. Just gave the tank a thorough cleaning and will eagerly await knocking this algae down! I have one additional question. As you can see my water is pretty hard. I have an rodi system, but wanted to know when the appropriate time would be to cut in a 50:50 rodi to well water for my weekly water changes.
Hi JuanSan,

I prefer to do one change at a time then wait a couple of weeks to see the results. If I change a bunch of stuff at the same time I can't determine what worked and what didn't.

After the light is 'dialed in' a little better so the plants are showing more healthy growth then I would tackle the water parameters but only if they are causing issues with the plant or fish species you want to maintain in your tank.
Raymond S. and Raymond S. like this.

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is online now  
post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-12-2016, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
Planted Member
 
JuanSan's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuanSan View Post
Hi there!

Thank you for all of your help! I will keep that in mind. Just gave the tank a thorough cleaning and will eagerly await knocking this algae down! I have one additional question. As you can see my water is pretty hard. I have an rodi system, but wanted to know when the appropriate time would be to cut in a 50:50 rodi to well water for my weekly water changes.
Hi JuanSan,

I prefer to do one change at a time then wait a couple of weeks to see the results. If I change a bunch of stuff at the same time I can't determine what worked and what didn't.

After the light is 'dialed in' a little better so the plants are showing more healthy growth then I would tackle the water parameters but only if they are causing issues with the plant or fish species you want to maintain in your tank.

The deeper i get into this, the more i realize that this is a lot of trial and error. Im glad i have the science background to understand the the whys but i am really appreciating the experimentation that it takes to have a thriving tank.
JuanSan is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome