Reading PH/KH/CO2 chart - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-07-2016, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 9
Reading PH/KH/CO2 chart

My PH with CO2 on is 6.0

Ph after sitting 24 hours my PH is 7.2

My Neutra fin test kit took three drops to turn from blue to yellow so I have a 30ppm/l KH? So if I multiply it by .056 I get 1.68 the chart doesn't even start that low. What am I doing wrong?
M.Flynn is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-07-2016, 11:37 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
dukydaf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Rome
Posts: 1,273
Just to make sure we are talking about the same chart : CO2/pH/KH table - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

The way you use it is to go to the row that has your KH value, in this case KH=3, then go to the column that has your pH value, pH 6. The intersection of row-column gives a 90ppm (mg/L) CO2.

This might be an overestimation of your actual value depending on how sure you are that
1. the instrument you measured the pH is accurate and precise. Is it a new pH probe ? When was it last calibrated ? Colorimetric test ?
2. the KH value is largely from carbonates
3. the time and location of measurement are representative for a large part of the aquarium

Regardless, it seems to be enough CO2 and you should always observe the behaviour of fish/shrimps. You can double check with a dropchecker. You can assume the water after 24 is at equilibrium ~0.5ppm

On hiatus till later this year

Last edited by dukydaf; 04-08-2016 at 12:15 AM. Reason: ,
dukydaf is offline  
post #3 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-08-2016, 12:04 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Maryland Guppy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (15/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Arnold
Posts: 3,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.Flynn View Post
My PH with CO2 on is 6.0

Ph after sitting 24 hours my PH is 7.2
A better plan is that every 1.0 drop in pH = 30ppm CO2

7.2 - 6.0 = 1.2 x 30 = 36ppm/CO2

24 hours not needed to de-gas, drop an air stone in sample for 30-60 minutes.

If you want the formula to solve for the chart I will find it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Growing is not that difficult.
Maryland Guppy is offline  
 
post #4 of 7 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 09:39 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 66
From whence cometh the KH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dukydaf View Post
Just to make sure we are talking about the same chart : CO2/pH/KH table - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

The way you use it is to go to the row that has your KH value, in this case KH=3, then go to the column that has your pH value, pH 6. The intersection of row-column gives a 90ppm (mg/L) CO2.

This might be an overestimation of your actual value depending on how sure you are that
1. the instrument you measured the pH is accurate and precise. Is it a new pH probe ? When was it last calibrated ? Colorimetric test ?
2. the KH value is largely from carbonates
3. the time and location of measurement are representative for a large part of the aquarium

Regardless, it seems to be enough CO2 and you should always observe the behaviour of fish/shrimps. You can double check with a dropchecker. You can assume the water after 24 is at equilibrium ~0.5ppm

Are we measuring the KH from the tap or from the tank?
akd200 is offline  
post #5 of 7 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 10:53 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 1,495
With the nutrifying test kit you need to multiply drops by 10 then multiply by .056 in order to get your dkh. So he was accurate at 1.6. I'm assuming he is using ADA substrates as mine is similar.

I use a drop checker

Nutrafin dam phone

Last edited by Darkblade48; 04-01-2017 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
Dman911 is offline  
post #6 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 04:45 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
dukydaf's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Rome
Posts: 1,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by akd200 View Post
Are we measuring the KH from the tap or from the tank?
Always from the tank.

If you have a buffering substrate your Kh will be lower over time.
With new Ada Amazonia it was able to drop the KH from 13 to 10 in a week. Meaning less CO2 for same pH.
With coral in the filter or seiryu rocks your Kh will increase in a week, meaning more CO2 same pH.

On hiatus till later this year
dukydaf is offline  
post #7 of 7 (permalink) Old 04-01-2017, 07:59 AM
Planted Member
 
ed.junior's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 159
Okay, please let me try and explain a couple things.

1. The pH/kH table as a way to measure your CO2 content, is at best, very imprecise, going in the direction of unreliabe. That table assumes you have water, some carbonates, co2, and nothing else, almost pure water. The table assumes that pH shifts are limited to CO2. 99% of the time, this is not the case. Changes to the pH by a bit of acidity completely throw the table off. I would have 100+ ppm of CO2, for example, which is just not true.

2. Forget about being precise measuring pH (e.g. calibrated pH probe) or kH (e.g. Lamotte tests), if in the end you resort to the pH/kH table, and end up comparing the results in pure water with your tank water.

You could rest your water for some hours, or use an air stone, to find out your water pH when CO2 is in balance with the atmosphere. That DOES give you the pH drop.

3. The problem is with people saying 1 point pH drop equals 30ppm. That might be the case, might not. George Booth and his studies came up with this value of "minimal" CO2, which varied from 2 to 3ppm in a tank. This is water in a tank, with active fish and bacteria. If we consider this as a starting point, a 1 point pH drop would add 20 to 30ppm.

What is the reasoning behind this? All gases will, given time, balance themselves between air/water, as explained by Henry's law (partial gas pressure, solubility, etc). So, given time, the roughly 400ppm of CO2 in the atmosphere will cause our water to have around 0.5ppm of CO2. Inside our homes this initial co2 value would go even higher (e.g. 1000ppm), which again would put more CO2 into the water.
Water, resting outside the tank, is getting its CO2 exclusively from the atmosphere, the air in our homes. In the tank the CO2 content also gets some help from all the fauna. Guessing its precise CO2 concentration is not easy, given the situation described. Consider that changes of temperature also change the situation, as warmer water will retain less CO2/gases in general.

4. CO2 injection, being very very short, shifts CO2 by 10x for every 1 point pH drop. So, if you have a 1 point pH drop, the initial CO2 concentration is now 10x higher (e.g. from 2.2 to 22ppm of CO2). That is regardless of kH, but you must have at least ~3 dkH to measure the pH drop, or pH crashes get very real.

Thats one way to measure CO2 content, by the pH drop. But the measure itself is the drop, not somehow a translation to CO2 ppms. Example: "I have a 1 point pH drop", "I was able to have a 1.4 point pH drop", or even "I gassed my shrimp to death with 2.0 points pH drop". With a drop from pH 8 to 6, the CO2 concentration is 100x higher (e.g. from 1.2ppm to 120ppm).

5. Most people have great results with 1 point pH drop. Some, because of several reasons, like the 1.4 to 1.5 region. That is up to you. My interest in this discussion is only clarifying that nailing down the exact CO2 value is not easy, but also not needed. Measuring the mililiters of CO2 being injected per minute is also another way to go, although in this case you have to consider dissolution.

6. Tom Barr once asked us "How many ways do you know to measure CO2?" He mentioned that he had 8+ ways available to him. Makes you wonder, right?

In the link below, he describes a very DIY/Precise way to check it, using a probe, O2/DO membranes, 4 dkH solution, and some effort. If you want to get precise, go for it

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr...ng-to-ei/page9


Quote:
Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
every 1.0 drop in pH = 30ppm CO2
7.2 - 6.0 = 1.2 x 30 = 36ppm/CO2
Im afraid this calculation is mistaken.

EVERY 1 point pH drop raises the pH concentration 10x, instead of adding a fixed amount. pH drop and CO2 concentration are not linear.

So, by the mistaken calculation, from pH 8 to 6, we have 2 x 30, so 60. That is not a correct calculation.

Keeping it simple, it is like a geometrical progression, and it needs a starting point, for instance, at pH 8 I have 2ppm of CO2, at pH 7 I will have 20ppm. That is why most people resort to George Booth and 2-3ppm of CO2, to have this initial value. Important to understand is the fact that if you drop your pH from 8 to 7 you have a added a smaller concentration of CO2 than if you lowered your pH from 7 to 6.

One example:
pH 8 - 1ppm CO2
pH 7 - 10ppm CO2
pH 6 - 100ppm CO2

That is exactly why people gas their fishes to death: just a 0.2 drop might raise the concentration a lot in a lower pH (e.g 6) while it adds almost nothing at higher pHs (e.g. 8).

Last edited by ed.junior; 04-01-2017 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
ed.junior is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome