Is this dosing overboard? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 09:03 PM Thread Starter
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Is this dosing overboard?

EI Dry Fertz

2.7 tsp nitrogen
2.1 potassium sulfate
1.7 mono phosphate

sunday with water change + every other day

Flourish Iron Daily

Flourish for trace every off day

Saturday rest day

72 bow, 4-5 bps, DIY reactor w/ siphon + pump, xp4, powerheads for circulation, HEAVILY planted, 265 W CF, flourite/medium gravel mix.

50-60 inches worth of fish

2 angel, 4 medium roseline shark, 5 german blue ram, 9 rummy nose, couple small danio
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 10:24 PM
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The dose is irrelevant. What are your test results? How long have you been dosing this much? It seems like a lot, but if your plants are happy, you are happy with your algae situation, and your nitrates are not hurting your fish, then I would say you are on the right track.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theredben View Post
The dose is irrelevant. What are your test results? How long have you been dosing this much? It seems like a lot, but if your plants are happy, you are happy with your algae situation, and your nitrates are not hurting your fish, then I would say you are on the right track.
Dose(frequency X mass) is entirely relevant, it's the test that are not relevant, that's the point of EI.
The main tenant actually.

The idea is that you avoid test kits, which also need another layer of confirmation by calibrating the test kits/method you are using.
Otherwise you are guessing or assuming that these Test kits, which many folks seem to hold dear and cherish as some shining beckon of truth, are in fact accurate and correct in their readings.

Perhaps 10% of folks in this hobby do this step and I'm being pretty generous.

EI is fairly straight forward on the other hand.
You guess some, but you also know most of the ppm's will be within a useful range that's acceptable based on risk and infinite series dilution math.

I think many assuem there's some risk involved with dosing ferts, perhaps too little I would say...but I've not met anyone or heard of any confirmed cases, and plenty of folks have messed their dosing up and added wayy too much quite often over the years, without ill effects.

Test kits have their own issues, they hardly solve an unknown unless you use them correctly. I suggest using high quality test kits, such as Lamottee or Hach, something I've stated and been on record suggesting to hobbyists since Steve convinced me back in 1996.

To the poster, you have a lot of light, should be okay if you have enough CO2, that will be the main issue. Good current helps, you lose a bit of CO2, but you add a tad more to compensate. But..you also gain good stable high O2, which the fish will thank you for.

A good trade off.

There are many calculators that use EI etc to help folks micromanage ppm's.
I really have not found they offer much advantage to hobbyists.

I think watching and dosing progressively slight less every 2 weeks till you see a negative response, then bump it back up to the next highest dosing works fine if you want to minimize fert ppm's.

No test are needed other than good observations.
Still, light and CO2, general plant density(you said it's very dense) play a much larger role than ferts.

Less light= less CO2 demand thus more wiggle room in adding this, and also less uptake demand and thus more wiggle room with nutrients as well.

Many.most hobbyists add too much light for what they would like to do growth and management wise.

With 260W of PC, you likely have 4x 65W.

You could run one bank of lights(130W) for 4-5 hours, then the rear bank for 4-5 hours, or have a little overlap where all are on for say 1-2 hours.

That would make things more manageable.

Dosing seems a bit rich to me.
I'd suggest 3x a week(you can subdivide to daily amounts if you wish, whatever gets the ferts in the tank)

3/4 tsp KNO3
1/4 tsp KH2PO4
Gh booster after water change only: 1.5 tsp
Traces: about 15ms or so.
I dose a bit richer or less depending and how the tank is doing.

Typical issues: not cleaning filters, not trimming plants, poor current due to plant overgrowth etc, poor CO2 etc, forgetful dosing.
Since you dose daily anyway, might as well add the macros into a liquid for a 2-4 week's supply and dose the mls. Keep the traces apart from the macro solutions, you can add them both to the tank at the same time etc, just do not make stock solution with traces/PO4 mixes.

www.aquariumfertilizer.com sells the Fe gluconate, "generic Flourish Iron" now BTW.

I'd spend more time on light adjustments, reduction and good CO2 management. Nutrients should be VERY easy if that is done and growth excellent and manageable.


Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 03:27 AM
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An Aqueon 72 gallon bowfront tank is 22 inches high, so if yours is like that you probably have medium light intensity, possibly high medium light, with the 4 PC bulbs. If those are raised above the top of the tank by a few inches more than the height of the substrate, you might have only medium to low intensity. I doubt that there is any chance that you have high intensity. It looks to me like you are very high on dosing, and should use less than half of that, probably much less than half if you have only low-medium light.

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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 06:30 PM
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Metal Screen is the other option to use to reduce light where you cannot turn down the bulb no#, or raise the light up etc.

1st layer knocks off about 10% for most screen, 30% or so for 2 layers thick and so on. Sort of wasteful to use more light then block it, but still better than hassling with more management and algal issues.

This tank had 330 W of PC, then I dropped it to 220 as it was a PITA to keep up on, it's a 75 Gal, a little different, but close, the lights are 8" above the water here:



Still a high light tank really.
I think it did better when I used 110w in the far front, and then the far rear 110w came on later in the day.

I could use both sets for 8-10 hours and grow things in fast, then back off and save energy and slow the growth down after the plants got to where I want.

All growth will start with light as a driving factor. Then CO2, lastly, nutrients, so they are bit down the line. I'd not focus too much on them. Perhaps once you master all things light/CO2 and current etc.

Then go back and test them critically, if.......and that's big if.........you want to.


Another helpful thing is using sediments such as ADA aqua soil.
This hedges things with dosing the water column, so you have a redundant back up supply for nutrients, makign ther water column dosing even easier.

Combine that with good current, low light, good CO2 methods, and you have a very robust system that meets most hobbyists goals. I dosed the above on this tank, but I could have done a few things better on it:

More filter, more current, T5 lights, say 2x 54W spread about 15" apart, ADA AS instead of onyx sand. You can obviously still have a nicer tank with those things also, but the above would have made it easier and less touchy.






Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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so with my 265watt CF lights on 10 hours a day sitting about 3-5 inches above the water in a tall tank like the 72 gallon bow front... do I have high light or medium or low? I've been dosing the higher dosing regimen and I swear it looks better...
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three105 View Post
so with my 265watt CF lights on 10 hours a day sitting about 3-5 inches above the water in a tall tank like the 72 gallon bow front... do I have high light or medium or low? I've been dosing the higher dosing regimen and I swear it looks better...
Med high I'd say, I'd run 1/2 the fronts and then the back half the remainder of the light period, so the front ones on for 5 hours, and then the back on for 5 hours.

If you want, run the a little over lap, say 1-2 hours at most midday.

Once things settle in, you are comfy etc, then you might try more light.
Or not and just be happy with a slower growing tank.

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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 02:54 AM
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My guess is that you have low-medium light intensity, but it depends on how good the reflectors are. You don't have high light, or at least I don't believe that it is possible that you have high light. I'm assuming that you have 4 65 watt PC bulbs, and have two fixtures, placed end to end on top of the tank. If you have a different configuration I don't know how much light you have.

You can overdose by a lot before any bad effects show up, so you may not be overdosing that much.

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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 05:44 PM Thread Starter
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1 fixture 4 65 watt bulb coralife CF 265W

plants are even greener now from dosing heavier macros... I notice that riccia towards top pearls a lot more then riccia at bottom tho... so maybe my light is a little lighter
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 05:45 PM Thread Starter
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actually I doubt that cause my regular baby tears have changed form to a little thinner, long leaves and grows horizontally not vertically as much.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-10-2010, 06:12 PM
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You have a local club there and should seek some help with them also.
Often they can help ease many worries new folks have.

Regards,
Tom Barr




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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-11-2010, 01:57 AM Thread Starter
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ugh... it's gotta be co2, i understand now.

I bought a CA 200 aqua pump/powerhead and connected that with a siphoning silicone line to the siphon, drilled a hole 1-3 inches before the end of the siphon and put my co2 line in there and pointed it down... creating a DIY reactor... I put in some foam sponge at the end as well to keep co2 bubbles form coming out but it kinda fell out... even though the bubbles don't get pushed hard enough to go down and out... I think I'll try connecting an air stone to the co2 line in the siphon to break up the bubbles a little better... see how that works...

I gotta figure out a way to get CO2 in the water better... no matter what kind of BPS i turn the CO2 to I have never seen my fish gasping at top... through GLA's largest glass diffuser or through my DIY reactor I just made a few days ago...
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-11-2010, 07:51 PM
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No! do not seal the reactor up with the foam.
Bad idea, clogs anyways. The mist coming out the bottom should be placed where the current can take it all over the tank.

That will help a lot.

See the DIY needle wheel modification picture I've put on this site for CO2.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-14-2010, 06:19 AM Thread Starter
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it's either gotta be co2 or light... stuff pearls more towards the top of the tank/grows better more towards the top... is it possible that even with the diy reactor i am not getting enough co2 into my tank at high bps? or maybe my light is not enough I JUST DONT GET IT!
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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 02-15-2010, 03:20 AM Thread Starter
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Alright Barr, Hoppy... I got you guys some pictures...

It just doesn't make sense... Why do I not have pearling all over the pace or towards bottom of tank... and the hard spot algae on my red plants, some of the anubias towards bottom of tank... why on the glass, why with my heavy dosing of macros, micros... I did the DIY co2 thing with the siphon and the co2 line in it... no sponge in there just slanted downwards i even put a air stone on the end of it to break up the co2 in siphon as the pump shoots the bubbles down... none get out or anything as long as the siphon is angled downward... i got it pumped up like 4-6 bps... something fast... i got the powerheads on both sides... i got the spray bar on the xp4... i just don't get it... i really don't... definitely some stunted growth in red plants i think...

I dose iron like 2 capfuls of flourish iron a day...


anyways heres some pictures












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