Root Tabs and Liquid Fert - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Asteroid View Post
You specifically said stem plants not crypts/swords. Personally I have found the whole root feeder thing completely overblown. I have and most have grown completely healthy crypts/swords without anything in the substrate.
What are your water parameters?
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 12:55 PM
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What are your water parameters?
I've had many tanks with different parameters and never had a problem growing stems plants (or any plant) without root tabs. I'm also going by all the other tanks in peoples journals that have different parameters growing a wide variety of plants in inert substrate by dosing the water column.

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I don't have stems in my tank, I find them annoying...
Why would you state how root tabs help stem plants and then say you don't have stems and find them annoying. If you mean they are annoying by the trimming that needs to be done over and over then I would agree with you. I've gone lighter on stems too due to this.


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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 01:21 PM
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I've had many tanks with different parameters and never had a problem growing stems plants (or any plant) without root tabs. I'm also going by all the other tanks in peoples journals that have different parameters growing a wide variety of plants in inert substrate by dosing the water column.
Since you can grow anything with water column dosing alone according to you ( I haven't asked everybody else), I figured you'd more than willing to share. All of us want to be able to say that we can grow anything, although anybody can say they can grow everything...


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Originally Posted by Asteroid View Post
Why would you state how root tabs help stem plants and then say you don't have stems and find them annoying.
In my personal experience as I've already explained, sometimes plants need help. I understand that your mantra is that anything can be grown with water column feeding alone, but not everybody is you or has your water parameters that you for whatever reason you don't want to share.

I have tried stems on several occasions. They don't grow; they rot in my substrate that consists of CarbiSea River Rock gravel, Flourite and Eco-Complete. Perhaps I would have had better luck using root tabs, but I'm over wasting money on stem plants to find out.

My water parameters:

pH: 7.2
GH: 5
KH:1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 15
Nitrites: 0
TDS: 215

My remineralized RO water is very soft. Perhaps this is what keeping me from growing anything and everything I want.
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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Smooch View Post
Since you can grow anything with water column dosing alone according to you ( I haven't asked everybody else), I figured you'd more than willing to share. All of us want to be able to say that we can grow anything, although anybody can say they can grow everything...




In my personal experience as I've already explained, sometimes plants need help. I understand that your mantra is that anything can be grown with water column feeding alone, but not everybody is you or has your water parameters that you for whatever reason you don't want to share.

I have tried stems on several occasions. They don't grow; they rot in my substrate that consists of CarbiSea River Rock gravel, Flourite and Eco-Complete. Perhaps I would have had better luck using root tabs, but I'm over wasting money on stem plants to find out.

My water parameters:

pH: 7.2
GH: 5
KH:1
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 15
Nitrites: 0
TDS: 215

My remineralized RO water is very soft. Perhaps this is what keeping me from growing anything and everything I want.
I'm willing to share anything you want. I just told you that I've grown stems as many others have under many different parameters. If your using RO water I'm not sure why you can't adjust the water column for any deficiencies. We are talking about the need for root tabs vs putting things in the water. I haven't grown every plant (nor has anyone else), what I meant is whatever I tried to grew with water column dosing and root tabs did not make any difference if there was a variety that didn't grow.

My current location has soft water and is actually by coincedence very similar to yours:

PH 7.2, with full co2 6.4
KH 3

I keep macros usually in the hi-end of EI ranges.


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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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Yes, we're talking root tabs and how to grow plants. You have yet to explain why root tabs act like such a thorn in your side. Why do you care? Nobody is twisting your arm and or forcing you to use them. There also isn't anything magical about liquid ferts. Lets not make those to be something that they're not. They don't not act like a magic wand in any tank. If that is all that it took without any other factors which you don't want to talk about, everybody would the ideal, perfect tank of their dreams. No algae, no cyano, ect..
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Smooch View Post
Yes, we're talking root tabs and how to grow plants. You have yet to explain why root tabs act like such a thorn in your side. Why do you care? Nobody is twisting your arm and or forcing you to use them. There also isn't anything magical about liquid ferts. Lets not make those to be something that they're not. They don't not act like a magic wand in any tank. If that is all that it took without any other factors which you don't want to talk about, everybody would the ideal, perfect tank of their dreams. No algae, no cyano, ect..
I'm stating they aren't necessary based on thousands and thousands of tanks. I can't give my experience and opinion? Your the one that couldn't let my comments and experience go without rebuttal. It's not magic. It's pretty simple. If the ferts are in the water column the plants can use them they don't generally need them in the substrate.

All I said was I never had a stem plant that needed a root tab. I didn't even quote you and you couldn't let it go. So why do you care so much that I can't make a comment?


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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:22 PM
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I'm stating they aren't necessary based on thousands and thousands of tanks. I can't give my experience and opinion? Your the one that couldn't let my comments and experience go without rebuttal. It's not magic. It's pretty simple. If the ferts are in the water column the plants can use them they don't generally need them in the substrate.
You're not a victim, so stop. Again, I was talking to you, not everybody else. Interesting choice of words in the bolded part by the way. You've gone from never to generally. Interesting...

You're free to give your opinion, but if you don't want people asking what your issue is with root tabs then don't talk about it because eventually somebody to ask. Today it just happened to be me.
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by WillR1496 View Post
I've been reading more and more about using root tabs in conjunction with liquid fert. I currently use Seachem Flourish every 4 days. I do not run co2 or anything special. It's all very low tech.


With that being said, should I use root tabs along with the Flourish? If so, what root tabs would you all recommend? Keep in mind that I have shrimp so I'm trying to limit the amount of cooper that is put into the tank. I know Flourish has it but it has very little in it.
Will,

If you're only adding Flourish to the water then yes, root tabs can help a lot. If you want to get more involved and delve deeper into the nutritional aspects of your tank, using water column fertilization does work. If that's not something you want to do then root tabs/substrate supplementation is a good way to go. Providing the majority of your plants' nutrient needs via the substrate and supplementing it with a product like Flourish or Thrive to provide extra nutrients that your plants may need also works well. It all depends on what your priorities are for keeping your tank and how much time and involvement you want to put into nutrient supplementation. I've kept high tech and low tech tanks with all varieties of nutrient supplementation; none, substrate only, water only, and substrate and water combined. They all worked and met my goals for the given tank and my desires for time spent caring for the system. Remember, it's YOUR tank and YOUR hobby, so do it how YOU want and don't let others push you into something you don't want to do. As long as you're happy with it, that's all that matters.

Regards,
Phil
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Last edited by Phil Edwards; 05-14-2019 at 02:49 PM. Reason: .
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Smooch View Post
You're not a victim, so stop. Again, I was talking to you, not everybody else. Interesting choice of words in the bolded part by the way. You've gone from never to generally. Interesting...

You're free to give your opinion, but if you don't want people asking what your issue is with root tabs then don't talk about it because eventually somebody to ask. Today it just happened to be me.
It's generally because for 99% of people they aren't at all necessary if your dosing the water column fully. Around here if you say never, there's always someone who comes out and says something else. So that's the advise I would give the OP to keep it simple. Which is always the best advise for a newbie or someone asking questions. Giving the answer that works in the vast majority of situations is more likely to help then the answer that might help a tiny minority. What do you mean by issue with root tabs? I don't think they're necessary if your dosing the water column fully. Which I've said a million times. If you have low tech and only dosing micros then yes certain root tabs would be beneficial I've never said otherwise.

BTW stick to the topic and stop getting personal. I'm simply debating root tabs and your getting into other things. Not necessary.


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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 02:50 PM
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I've had a lot of success using Flourish Tabs and recommend them without reservation. Whenever I use them in a new tank I always cut them up into eights (approximately) and put a chunk every three inches. Once the tank settles in and I've got a better idea of how the plants respond then I may increase the amount if it's needed.
I find it very interesting that experienced aquarists use Fluorish tabs, I can't understand it.
As a former chemist I like to read the label of the things I put in my tank.

They contain 0.2% N 0.17%P and 0.16%K and 2.2% Fe and 14.9% Ca.

If the whole bag(10 tabs) were crushed up and dumped in the water an entire bag would provide negligible Macros and a significant overdose of Fe and Ca.

Yet I see time after time these reccomended as a source of N and P which makes no sense to me. As a source of Micros I understand this completely, and if you aren't going to dose Micros for a while I know some top aquarists crush up two bags and put it in their substrate, however there are cheaper and more efficient ways to put Micros in your substrate. But as an N and P source it makes no sense, your water column still must provide your plant's Macro needs.

Osmocote Plus on the other hand contains 15%/9%/12% N/P/K and 0.49% Fe, those to make a lot more sense. Both as a Macro and Micro source.


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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 03:28 PM
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I find it very interesting that experienced aquarists use Fluorish tabs, I can't understand it.
cl,

It depends on the application and the individual's comfort with using various products. If I hadn't done my master's thesis in substrates for growing aquatic plants then I would still be leery of adding a rich terrestrial fertilizer to my tank. There's a lot to be said for feeling comfortable with products to use in an aquarium too. With the amount of time the Flourish line has been on the market, beginners can have confidence that the products aren't going to wipe their tank out, they come with clear instructions that are easy to understand and follow, and there's a greater margin for error. It's easy for those of us with more experience and/or more detailed knowledge of biology and/or chemistry to say "Use product XYZ" or "Do ABC, not DEF." because we have a deeper information base on which to draw. Is it possible to blindly follow a given method or 1-2-3 recipe and have success? Absolutely, I've seen it happen. More often though, blindly following a method leads to trouble at some point and because the person was just checking off the recipe list he/she frequently doesn't have enough knowledge of nutrient supplement and his/her specific tank to make corrections. I encountered this time and time again over my years in the hobby, working in aquarium retail, and being the technical expert for companies who make/sell aquarium supplements (not Seachem). The benefits of starting out simply and building a strong foundation comes can't be overstated. From success comes confidence, more enjoyment of the hobby, and a greater chance of long term involvement.

I agree with you, Osmocote is the superior overall nutrient supplement; particularly for high-demand systems. It's also very rich and can cause significant problems if used improperly or when something goes wrong. I'm currently using Osmocote+ in my high light/high demand stem tank because the nutrient balance requires higher total input and I don't want to be messing around with micromanaging dries these days. I've also used a couple varieties of Jobe's and MiracleGro sticks in the past with great success in both low and high demand tanks; sometimes with water column supplementation and sometimes without. The Flourish Tab + Flourish liquid combo has worked well for me too in "low tech" low demand systems. It all depends on the needs of the system. If nutrient demand is modest and the plants are doing well with the macros they get from other sources, the combination of Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid can work very well to supplement minor and micro nutrient needs. It's a combo I've used for low demand systems for a long time.

To distill the answer down; even experienced people use them because they work. If they didn't work then folks who know what they're doing wouldn't use them. It's also about a system's needs. Sometimes a system needs a high nutrient additive and sometimes it doesn't. In the end, it all comes down to the individual aquarist's needs and comfort level with a given product. "Sometimes we feel like a nut, sometimes we don't.".
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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 03:51 PM
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... The Flourish Tab + Flourish liquid combo has worked well for me too in "low tech" low demand systems. ...
I understand the root tab benefits ferts in low tech without dosing the water column, but Flourish + Flourish? Aren't they essentially the same thing? In fact Seachem states that they generally recommend one or the other, not both. For a company that has a horse in the race to make this comment I don't take it lightly.


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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 05:16 PM
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I understand the root tab benefits ferts in low tech without dosing the water column, but Flourish + Flourish? Aren't they essentially the same thing? In fact Seachem states that they generally recommend one or the other, not both. For a company that has a horse in the race to make this comment I don't take it lightly.
That's a good question to ask. I've had the opportunity to visit Seachem's facility and have detailed conversations with their scientists on multiple occasions and feel confident in my recommendation. Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid are two products designed for both the average person wanting a couple plants in their tank as well as the beginner plant hobbyist who's starting to get into the hobby more seriously. Recommending the one or the other method is the best way for the general populace who keep a couple hardy plants but don't necessarily have systems that need more nutrient input. Once someone starts adding enough plants to need a bit more input using both products is a solid first step.

In my experience, substrate supplementation is a good long-term/slow release base for nutrient supplementation but it doesn't always meet all needs when plant mass is heavy. Having a way to give a little extra via the water column as needed has helped me a lot in the past; particularly in low tech systems. Using the substrate as the main source of nutrients is something I feel is very helpful for beginners. It's easy to understand and is much less prone to mistakes while getting a grasp on the fundamentals of aquatic horticulture. Once that foundation's in place and the person has a stronger grasp on how his/her plants grow and the system itself works, switching to water column supplementation and/or moving on to more complex things like learning how to manage multiple liquids or dry nutrients is more practical. Until that point simple, manageable, and effective is best. Too often in this hobby people who don't really know what's going on and have just enough information to be dangerous tell beginners things like they have to use more light than they're ready for, high CO2, and a dosing regimen like EI. Almost as often, I've seen those people have major issues, fail because they don't have a solid foundation, and leave the hobby. Helping people have success in the hobby is my goal, not pushing them into something they may not be ready for.

Regards,
Phil

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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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That's a good question to ask. I've had the opportunity to visit Seachem's facility and have detailed conversations with their scientists on multiple occasions and feel confident in my recommendation. Flourish Tabs and Flourish liquid are two products designed for both the average person wanting a couple plants in their tank as well as the beginner plant hobbyist who's starting to get into the hobby more seriously. Recommending the one or the other method is the best way for the general populace who keep a couple hardy plants but don't necessarily have systems that need more nutrient input. Once someone starts adding enough plants to need a bit more input using both products is a solid first step.

In my experience, substrate supplementation is a good long-term/slow release base for nutrient supplementation but it doesn't always meet all needs when plant mass is heavy. Having a way to give a little extra via the water column as needed has helped me a lot in the past; particularly in low tech systems. Using the substrate as the main source of nutrients is something I feel is very helpful for beginners. It's easy to understand and is much less prone to mistakes while getting a grasp on the fundamentals of aquatic horticulture. Once that foundation's in place and the person has a stronger grasp on how his/her plants grow and the system itself works, switching to water column supplementation and/or moving on to more complex things like learning how to manage multiple liquids or dry nutrients is more practical. Until that point simple, manageable, and effective is best. Too often in this hobby people who don't really know what's going on and have just enough information to be dangerous tell beginners things like they have to use more light than they're ready for, high CO2, and a dosing regimen like EI. Almost as often, I've seen those people have major issues, fail because they don't have a solid foundation, and leave the hobby. Helping people have success in the hobby is my goal, not pushing them into something they may not be ready for.

Regards,
Phil
I agree with much of what you have said, although I don't think using root tabs is plant mass dependent. If that is in fact what your saying.

Just so you know I've been in the hobby for 13 years and have taken it further by professionally setting up tanks at both residential, commercial and LFS locations on the side since I enjoyed it. So I am not a beginner or someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Everything is in context. For a newbie the simplest approach to me is to simply dose the water column and not confusing things with root tabs which can also have a negative effect if the new hobbyist isn't religious with his maintenance and the tabs disperse into the water column. The upside to me is simply not worth it.

The problem with some forum advise IMO is sometimes people follow experienced people who can do things that others can't and they fail. Experienced people can grow things without co2, with less light, etc. but the general masses will fail. They fail for the main reason they are not as dedicated to their tanks as the people giving the advise. So to use strong lighting, this or that isn't going to work for them since the maintenance and dedication goes hand in hand with that. I try to give practical advise on what works for most plants and most setups. There's always an exception or a unique set of circumstances that might go against this.

Another problem I see is that people get turned off thinking they need an advanced degree in chemistry, etc to succeed. There are many here that bring their paper credentials and think it's always applicable to actually running a tank. Many here preach their chemistry knowledge etc and don't even have tanks. Some of the most successful people in the hobby come from a fine arts background. Amano (RIP), Knott come to mind. Actual experience will always trump reading or a degree IMO.
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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 06:22 PM
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You're absolutely right about over all experience being important, that peoples' individual experiences vary, and I agree with what you've said. You got into the installation/maintenance side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby and I fell down the rabbit hole of plant and aquatic sciences to get into the technical side of the industry after falling in love with the hobby. I think we're both coming from similar backgrounds that are different sides of the same coin. I've experienced too many people who followed poor, but well intentioned, advice and have had so many problems that they almost quit or did quit to not be blunt about it. Does that make me an [censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored][censored]? I hope not, but I'm certainly more curmudgeonly than I used to be.


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I agree with much of what you have said, although I don't think using root tabs is plant mass dependent. If that is in fact what your saying.

Just so you know I've been in the hobby for 13 years and have taken it further by professionally setting up tanks at both residential, commercial and LFS locations on the side since I enjoyed it. So I am not a beginner or someone with just enough information to be dangerous. Everything is in context. For a newbie the simplest approach to me is to simply dose the water column and not confusing things with root tabs which can also have a negative effect if the new hobbyist isn't religious with his maintenance and the tabs disperse into the water column. The upside to me is simply not worth it.

The problem with some forum advise IMO is sometimes people follow experienced people who can do things that others can't and they fail. Experienced people can grow things without co2, with less light, etc. but the general masses will fail. They fail for the main reason they are not as dedicated to their tanks as the people giving the advise. So to use strong lighting, this or that isn't going to work for them since the maintenance and dedication goes hand in hand with that. I try to give practical advise on what works for most plants and most setups. There's always an exception or a unique set of circumstances that might go against this.

Another problem I see is that people get turned off thinking they need an advanced degree in chemistry, etc to succeed. There are many here that bring their paper credentials and think it's always applicable to actually running a tank. Many here preach their chemistry knowledge etc and don't even have tanks. Some of the most successful people in the hobby come from a fine arts background. Amano (RIP), Knott come to mind. Actual experience will always trump reading or a degree IMO.

I've never regretted over engineering a system, but often regretted under engineering one.
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