Is PAR 220+ @ 20cm much or not? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Is PAR 220+ @ 20cm much or not?

I have two Juwel brand MultiLux LED lights, and found no PAR data on them so I asked the customer service. This is what they answered:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juwel Customer support
All Juwel lights the LED tubes as well as the Helialux Spectrum have a PAR of 220+ at a distance of 20 cm
Is this a lot or not? I have two of these tubes. How do I convert it to PAR at different depths? My tank for example has a distance of 35-45cm to substrate. 220 PAR is probably also the reading dead center.

How does this compared to popular planted tank lights?

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 03:27 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Quagulator's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Forest City ON, Canada
Posts: 2,124
220 is very high light.

It's likely not that much at the outer ends of the spread, and at deeper depths it tapers off as well.

Typically a lot of our lights will be in that range directly under light, fairly close to it. That's why red plants get a deeper red colour as it approaches the very high intensity light directly under the fixture.

My 30g Journal:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Quagulator is online now  
post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
220 is very high light.

It's likely not that much at the outer ends of the spread, and at deeper depths it tapers off as well.

Typically a lot of our lights will be in that range directly under light, fairly close to it. That's why red plants get a deeper red colour as it approaches the very high intensity light directly under the fixture.
I wonder how likely it is that statement is actually true then. These are only 14 watt LED tubes, and quite cheap (around 30 euros). I have noticed my Bacopa Caroliniana turning reddish the closer it is to the surface, though.
Also, isn't the reading much less at my actual tank depth? Is there any way to calculate what the PAR at substrate level might be (220 at 20cm, how about 40cm)?

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
 
post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 03:51 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,006
If I'm not mistaken, PAR at ~40 cm depth would be around 55 mMol/tube, so 110 mMol if your two tubes are close to one another. It's still very high light at that depth.

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer View Post
If I'm not mistaken, PAR at ~40 cm depth would be around 55 mMol/tube, so 110 mMol if your two tubes are close to one another. It's still very high light at that depth.
How is the conversion calculated? I asked Juwel customer support what is the likely PAR at substrate level in their aquarium I am using the lights in. I find it hard to believe these lights would be so strong. They are bright, but nothing crazy.

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 04:23 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (18/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: TN
Posts: 2,006
Inverse square law

Essentially, at twice the distance, output is 1/4th.

Snail Glades,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.
Rainer is offline  
post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 04:43 PM
Suspended
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 11,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoob View Post
I have two Juwel brand MultiLux LED lights, and found no PAR data on them so I asked the customer service. This is what they answered:

Is this a lot or not? I have two of these tubes. How do I convert it to PAR at different depths? My tank for example has a distance of 35-45cm to substrate. 220 PAR is probably also the reading dead center.

How does this compared to popular planted tank lights?

220PAR @ 8"

https://barrreport.com/threads/par-r...-market.14003/


ADA aquasky 601 is "close enough"..
At 40cm Par would most likely be 80-ish...
All a guess though..

I'm going to assume the 220 is for 2 tubes?


Note the "lumen" count doesn't come near to that PAR reading exactly but.. LED's are different..
https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/...n-count.53591/

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."

Last edited by jeffkrol; 01-28-2020 at 05:02 PM. Reason: edit
jeffkrol is offline  
post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post


220PAR @ 8"

https://barrreport.com/threads/par-r...-market.14003/


ADA aquasky 601 is "close enough"..
At 40cm Par would most likely be 80-ish...

I'm going to assume the 220 is for 2 tubes?
Nope, that is a direct quote which leaves me to believe it's 220 per tube. I find that very hard to believe, as the helialux is a high end single fixture for the same opening and the rep is citing the same number for it,which in practice would mean their high end offering is 50% less powerful than a cheap tube they sell. If only I had a PAR meter...

Quote:
Originally Posted by qoob View Post
Nope, that is a direct quote which leaves me to believe it's 220 per tube. I find that very hard to believe, as the helialux is a high end single fixture for the same opening and the rep is citing the same number for it,which in practice would mean their high end offering is 50% less powerful than a cheap tube they sell. If only I had a PAR meter...
Just to elaborate on my mistrust - the aquarium and LEDs I have (Juwel Lido & tubes that come with it) is the most beginner oriented ready-in-box aquarium that I know of. If the lights were outputting 220 PAR at 20 cm (and 80 at 40cm) basically every single beginner aquarist in my country would have a tank full with algae, keeping in mind that having a pressurized CO2 setup with EI on an auto-doser and a huge plant mass is very rare.

I'll try to squeeze some truth out of the customer support, but I very much doubt these numbers are real, if you guys are saying that common high end plant aquarium fixtures barely produces half of what they claim.

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Darkblade48; 01-29-2020 at 09:28 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
qoob is offline  
post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 06:29 PM
Suspended
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 11,588
Individual tubes for the Lido are 12 or 15W each AFAICT.
A "set" would be 24-28W..
Quote:
LED NATURE 438 mm/12 Watt - 86824 - Lido 120, Trigon 350
LED NATURE 590 mm/14 Watt - 86825 - Rio 125, Lido 200, Trigon 190
The Helilux Spectrum in equiv size.
Quote:
HeliaLux Spectrum 600 29 Watt - 48906
So yes 2 tubes = 1 Helilux..

NICREW comparison:
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-NICREW...aquatic-plants

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."

Last edited by jeffkrol; 01-28-2020 at 06:41 PM. Reason: edit
jeffkrol is offline  
post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-28-2020, 08:17 PM
Algae Grower
 
Cmors's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Santa Clara, California
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoob View Post
...If only I had a PAR meter...
Do you have a local PG&E Energy center? Often they have a lending center for such things.
Cmors is offline  
post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-29-2020, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
Individual tubes for the Lido are 12 or 15W each AFAICT.
A "set" would be 24-28W..


The Helilux Spectrum in equiv size.


So yes 2 tubes = 1 Helilux..

NICREW comparison:
https://www.quora.com/Are-the-NICREW...aquatic-plants
That would make a lot more sense. Thanks for the link - useful stuff. According that data and the customer support rep, my light would still constitute as very high light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmors View Post
Do you have a local PG&E Energy center? Often they have a lending center for such things.
unfortunately we don't have them where I live. I have a friend who is into meters, I'll start by asking him if an equivalent place exists here!

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-29-2020, 06:31 AM
Suspended
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 11,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoob View Post
That would make a lot more sense. Thanks for the link - useful stuff. According that data and the customer support rep, my light would still constitute as very high light.
In a sense that is sort of a matter of interpretation.
Those tanks are relatively deep so light at the substrate may not be as predicted..


IF you had a 6" tank that would be high light...
Convention usually assumes "At the substrate" ..


https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachme...84252-jpg.1892

You may be under 50PAR at like 24" 60-ish cm

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
jeffkrol is offline  
post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
In a sense that is sort of a matter of interpretation.
Those tanks are relatively deep so light at the substrate may not be as predicted..


IF you had a 6" tank that would be high light...
Convention usually assumes "At the substrate" ..


https://www.ukaps.org/forum/attachme...84252-jpg.1892

You may be under 50PAR at like 24" 60-ish cm
Thanks for that pic - I've seen it before but had no idea where. To me it seems like my lights are on the same curve as AHS PC, since they are 220 PAR at 8"? Here is my tank with a measuring tape next to it: https://imgur.com/tcf1Er2

Since light fixture is 3cm from the top, you need to remove 3cm to get the distance to the light. Basically substrate is something between 32cm to 46cm from light (12.6" - 18.1"). The tops of the echinodorus are at 2-3" from the light so PAR there must be immense, but that is normal I suppose when the light is attached to the lid.

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 06:59 PM
Suspended
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 11,588
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoob View Post
Thanks for that pic - I've seen it before but had no idea where. To me it seems like my lights are on the same curve as AHS PC, since they are 220 PAR at 8"? Here is my tank with a measuring tape next to it: https://imgur.com/tcf1Er2

Since light fixture is 3cm from the top, you need to remove 3cm to get the distance to the light. Basically substrate is something between 32cm to 46cm from light (12.6" - 18.1"). The tops of the echinodorus are at 2-3" from the light so PAR there must be immense, but that is normal I suppose when the light is attached to the lid.

sunlight is around 2000PAr (wel anywhere from zero to 2000-ish) so at 1-3"below the water ........................
Just a bit of perspective..


Most immersed are considered low light plants so it's "poosible" to hit the saturation point, especially w/ low CO2 levels
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/...png?1502434947

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure."
jeffkrol is offline  
post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 01-30-2020, 07:26 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
qoob's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
sunlight is around 2000PAr (wel anywhere from zero to 2000-ish) so at 1-3"below the water ........................
Just a bit of perspective..


Most immersed are considered low light plants so it's "poosible" to hit the saturation point, especially w/ low CO2 levels
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/...png?1502434947
Hmm I wonder why I get Green beard algae in these spots especially then CO2 is definitely not low.

120 liters, EI & CO2 and medium lights.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
qoob is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome