Why manufacturers don't post PAR read ever? (or ONF lighting problem)) - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-25-2019, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Question Why manufacturers don't post PAR read ever? (or ONF lighting problem))

Recently ran into some algae problem once I fiddled with light intensity setting, currently using 60cm ONF flat one...As ONF stated 70 watts for their 60cm, this is always beyond my understanding of LED light, it is way to powerful IMO. I had it 70% for 6 hours before, lately I wanted to try that nature mode which up&own the power slowly supposedly mimic NATURAL light, but it brought algae out. So I started to wondering what is exactly the intensity and Blue-White ratio mean to the actual PAR, thus I literately searched everywhere, I couldn't find anything, only one dude from amazon review that he has a website for PAR study of many nano size read, and he only has a ONF nano.


IF possible, can someone tell me what setting should I have for ONF flat one for a 40 cm height (US 20 gallon)tank? or is there someone done this before. I know a PAR meter is the best to find it out, but the price...or I guess everyone had this question in their mind just don't wanna pay the duty to spend a machine that is only for scientifically measuring light for plants?
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 01:53 PM
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Many factors is measuring PAR. I have been measuring par on club members tanks for 20 years now. You just can not print out a Par chart on a light as there are factors like depth of tank water movement, spectrum. Itís always best to have an adjustable light. Many freshwater lights are just on/off. You can rent PAR meters if you do not have a local aquarium club that has a PAR meter.

https://aquarium.bulkreefsupply.com/...r-Meter-Rental

If you donít want to do this just turn down the light to Half and watch the tank for a month an see how the plants react.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 01:16 PM
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Hi Ed,

You and I communicated elsewhere just a few days ago.

I am delighted to have discovered your post above. Aquarium lighting is of particular interest to me. Will be asking more about PAR measurement a little later today.

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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 01:46 PM
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I am on many forums. An a mod on many too. love talking and sharing thoughts. I started test par because it was something I had to do in the real world at product inspection stations at work once a month.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by EdWiser View Post
I am on many forums. An a mod on many too. love talking and sharing thoughts. I started test par because it was something I had to do in the real world at product inspection stations at work once a month.
Hi Ed,

Me again!

I have been frustrated a long time for not being able to reliably measure PAR. Recently, I identified the Apogee SQ-520 as a candidate. I chose this over some of the other Apogee PAR sensors as it covers the entire spectrum from 400nm to 700nm. I also like the idea of plugging it into a PC USB socket and using the Apogee software. Do you have any experience of this product?

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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Anon View Post
Hi Ed,

Me again!

I have been frustrated a long time for not being able to reliably measure PAR. Recently, I identified the Apogee SQ-520 as a candidate. I chose this over some of the other Apogee PAR sensors as it covers the entire spectrum from 400nm to 700nm. I also like the idea of plugging it into a PC USB socket and using the Apogee software. Do you have any experience of this product?

Anon
No experience personally but as far as quantum sensors go.. it's like "the go to" one...
Seneye "works" fine from most practical experiences but it's just not as err accurate .. as you saw since you looked at response spectrums..


currently about $100 difference between the really only 2 models (though the Apogee 200-ish uses a similar response sensor)

https://premiumaquatics.com/products...SABEgJRj_D_BwE


Bulk reef supply may have it on sale as well

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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdWiser View Post
I am on many forums. An a mod on many too. love talking and sharing thoughts. I started test par because it was something I had to do in the real world at product inspection stations at work once a month.
Hi Ed,

Me again!

I have been frustrated a long time for not being able to reliably measure PAR. Recently, I identified the Apogee SQ-520 as a candidate. I chose this over some of the other Apogee PAR sensors as it covers the entire spectrum from 400nm to 700nm. I also like the idea of plugging it into a PC USB socket and using the Apogee software. Do you have any experience of this product?

Anon
I have this and it's as straight forward as you can imagine as long as you have a laptop around.

But buying the par meter is the easy part. The hard part is being able to test any light you desire.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 05:56 PM
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No experience personally but as far as quantum sensors go.. it's like "the go to" one...
Seneye "works" fine from most practical experiences but it's just not as err accurate .. as you saw since you looked at response spectrums..


currently about $100 difference between the really only 2 models (though the Apogee 200-ish uses a similar response sensor)

https://premiumaquatics.com/products...SABEgJRj_D_BwE


Bulk reef supply may have it on sale as well
Hi jeffkrol,

Thanks for your reply.

I used to have a Seneye. Never again. When you say "as you saw since you looked at response spectrums..", I'm confused. How did you know that I had looked at response spectrums? I must have mentioned this somewhere, I guess. Oh dear, my brain is seizing up - yet again!

I take it that the SQ-520 is a good choice?

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 07:19 PM
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One would think by now that a PAR rating would be printed on any box that contained a light.
It could be an open air reading @ maximum intensity with say 6" increments.
At least this would put people in the ballpark.

And they label things for planted tanks!


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Growing is not that difficult.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 07:43 PM
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While it would be nice to get an idea, you can rough estimate based on wattage still. It's an old and out dated method, but you do get an idea of the output of the light. The biggest thing is researching similar tank sizes and see what people are running as far as the depth goes. I originally struggled with too weak of a light before I realized that the depth is what cuts down on the strength of the source.

Your light is 4500 lumens, which again is an old and dated measurement, but that should give you an idea. On my last 20g tank, I ran a beamswork LED which was 1200 lumens. It was just under 14w of power as well, with 0.5w leds. I was in the low light territory but had no problem growing dwarf sag, floatings, guppy grass, anubias, etc. You could cut your light to less than half if you are running without CO2 and likely have no issue with a decent length day schedule.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 08:14 PM
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Hi jeffkrol,

Thanks for your reply.

I used to have a Seneye. Never again. When you say "as you saw since you looked at response spectrums..", I'm confused. How did you know that I had looked at response spectrums? I must have mentioned this somewhere, I guess. Oh dear, my brain is seizing up - yet again!

I take it that the SQ-520 is a good choice?

Anon

I regret the day I picked the Seneye over the 520............
Not that the Seneye was bad...
it def. isn't.


I can only boil it down to sort of a personal choice..

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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 08:22 PM
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Hi Ed,



Me again!



I have been frustrated a long time for not being able to reliably measure PAR. Recently, I identified the Apogee SQ-520 as a candidate. I chose this over some of the other Apogee PAR sensors as it covers the entire spectrum from 400nm to 700nm. I also like the idea of plugging it into a PC USB socket and using the Apogee software. Do you have any experience of this product?



Anon


Yes that one is great I used a meter that logged the reading for me. As I had paper work to fill in for PM.
You can use this model or just get the meter model. For hobby use the software version would be useful if you are doing checks of light on many tanks or greenhouse.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
One would think by now that a PAR rating would be printed on any box that contained a light.

It could be an open air reading @ maximum intensity with say 6" increments.

At least this would put people in the ballpark.



And they label things for planted tanks!


The problem is water. Water can really mess with light. Water can cut the Par by 3/4 at the bottom of a tank. Also at an angle par can drop off fast. The human eye is terrible at determining how much light puts out as we have a small spectrum of light that are eyes are seeing.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Freemananana View Post
While it would be nice to get an idea, you can rough estimate based on wattage still. It's an old and out dated method, but you do get an idea of the output of the light. The biggest thing is researching similar tank sizes and see what people are running as far as the depth goes. I originally struggled with too weak of a light before I realized that the depth is what cuts down on the strength of the source.

Your light is 4500 lumens, which again is an old and dated measurement, but that should give you an idea. On my last 20g tank, I ran a beamswork LED which was 1200 lumens. It was just under 14w of power as well, with 0.5w leds. I was in the low light territory but had no problem growing dwarf sag, floatings, guppy grass, anubias, etc. You could cut your light to less than half if you are running without CO2 and likely have no issue with a decent length day schedule.



for the guesstimators.. calculators..
Lumens to LUX
https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/lig...alculator.html

LUX to "PAR"
https://www.waveformlighting.com/hor...ine-calculator

so lets start w/ 1200 lumens and a distance of 12". Lights roughly 36x 4 120 degree lenses
covers approx 25sq feet at 12"
517LUX..

13PAR..MINIMUM...
Assume like x1.25 for light entrainment..
16PAR..

considering you are prob. talking an equiv to an EA..30" EA is 1700 Lumens..
17.6 PAR after connsidering the new lumen amount.. 1200/1700 X say 25 per average of the 2 below at 12"
25 x .71= 17.75



What do you think???


I do prefer to "start" at the surface dimensions..and guess my way down..

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdWiser View Post
The problem is water. Water can really mess with light. Water can cut the Par by 3/4 at the bottom of a tank. Also at an angle par can drop off fast. The human eye is terrible at determining how much light puts out as we have a small spectrum of light that are eyes are seeing.


In certain ranges the light falloff is fairly linear..


6" PAR x. 5 = 12" PAR x .5 = 18" PAR.. At least in the ballpark..
slope of the log function,...sort of
https://study.com/cimages/multimages/16/fderlogfun2.png
https://www.advancedaquarist.com/201...png/image_full
Admittedly complicated..
Like by painting your back glass you massively cut reflected light that would stay in your tank..
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Last edited by jeffkrol; 12-27-2019 at 08:51 PM. Reason: edit
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 12-28-2019, 11:46 AM
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One can do all the estimating they still not as good as a meter and sensor in the water. Especially with LEDís as many of the lower priced ones many use do not have lenses to spread the light evenly.
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