T5's to bring out some reds? - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by OVT View Post
@jeffkrol: no UV in BML Dutch?

Then it must be next to a window Good reminder, dang.
He did a custom spectrum.. not even any 660nm..

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/...iodes_orig.jpg


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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Interesting Jeff.

Much of what you see here has little or nothing to do with lighting. It has more to do with creating the conditions that bring out certain colors in particular plants. Lean dosing and nitrate starvation. Works with a few select plants, but is a complete failure with others.

And is it sustainable and something many can duplicate? Well, I've rarely if ever have seen it. It's like walking a tightrope......very easy to fall off and crash anytime. Fine line between showing those colors and stunting and melting and gone. Sure Dennis can do it......but anyone else here on this site???? You??
I'm sure others here on the site can..

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10...ly-well-2.html
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
And my guess would be the colors would like the same or even better under T5.

Spoken like a true T5 fan boy..
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Lighting 8x52w T5HO
416W.. How many here could even handle that?
110Gal tank
How many would use like 300W of LEDs?


Pretty sure that photo is "enhanced"..but ??

t5's or LED's NEITHER is part. "easy"....


Besides red isn't exactly "healthy"..



https://youtu.be/ghaiqx4AzcI

Oh heck.. one more..
Quote:
On the right is Mark Crow's planted tank under twin BML LEDs. Finding a good spectrum selection can take effort though. Examples such as these fully dispel the notion that "LEDs can't grow aquarium plants" or that "LEDs can't grow red aquarium plants well".
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-t5vsled.html


https://www.aquascapeawards.com/scap...-160202093828/

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Last edited by jeffkrol; 06-14-2018 at 06:00 AM. Reason: edit
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post #32 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 07:55 AM
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Custom BML, double BML Dutch - affordable alternatives to t5's they are, straight from Amazon and LFS. Twinstar S are looking good, @ $500 for two, sans a bundled controller.

Take a look at the red plants in the picture you posted:



Ludwidgia red and Rotala colorata and AR mini. Half dead DH though. Me thinks Satelites Plus can grow that also. Still a nice scape.
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post #33 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 12:55 PM
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It may be more about the ratio of LED/light than the PAR. For instance, the twinstar has 40 red LEDs compared to the 55 white LEDs, a near 1:1 ratio. Dennis' BML fixture has 4 reds to compliment the 4 3000k and 4 5000k LEDs. Burr's 6-T5HO mix has 3 pink and 1 purple bulb. My own tank has 1 red for every 2 whites. That's a ton of red. The Fluval 2.0 (36") has 9 reds, 9 blues, and 98 whites (counted from the product images). If you want to have similar appearance as these other tanks, you need more red light.

I don't have a Satellite plus, but it looks like you can customize the R G B, and W power. Try setting your planted plus to 50%, then have 100% ONLY red LEDs on the satellite (no other colors). It will probably look very pink initially, but after 5-10 minutes your eyes will adjust and you'll notice the reds and greens will look more saturated.

As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.
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post #34 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpringHalo View Post
It may be more about the ratio of LED/light than the PAR. For instance, the twinstar has 40 red LEDs compared to the 55 white LEDs, a near 1:1 ratio. Dennis' BML fixture has 4 reds to compliment the 4 3000k and 4 5000k LEDs. Burr's 6-T5HO mix has 3 pink and 1 purple bulb. My own tank has 1 red for every 2 whites. That's a ton of red. The Fluval 2.0 (36") has 9 reds, 9 blues, and 98 whites (counted from the product images). If you want to have similar appearance as these other tanks, you need more red light.

I don't have a Satellite plus, but it looks like you can customize the R G B, and W power. Try setting your planted plus to 50%, then have 100% ONLY red LEDs on the satellite (no other colors). It will probably look very pink initially, but after 5-10 minutes your eyes will adjust and you'll notice the reds and greens will look more saturated.

As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.
Fluval 2.0 can't adjust color.

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post #35 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SpringHalo View Post
As an experiment, we might be able to get multiple people to take pictures of their red-plant trimmings in direct sunlight on white paper. Then we can see if it's the plant itself, or merely an effect of having more red light available.

That is actually a really good point.
My orig. LED builds grew plants that were certainly "redder" when looked at in daylight than when in the tank.
It is def. one piece of the puzzle..

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post #36 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 02:27 PM
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Fluval 2.0 can't adjust color.
Can you adjust brightness? I thought you mentioned in the original post that you had a Satellite plus, which would be used for the single color accent. If it's not a Sat+ Pro, you might not be able to try that either. In that case, my only cheap non-DIY suggestion is trying out "Marineland Red Accent Hidden LED System" as they're going out of production and are $20 each instead of $50. The issue I see with that option though, is that it uses deep red 660nm LEDs, which are only 1/3 the brightness (to your eyes) than the typical 630nm LEDs. Combine this with the low power of the LEDs (72x 0.06W), they're only equivalent to a couple of red 3W diodes.

I don't like recommending DIY to people who would rather get pre-made, but it might be the best option to get your red-boosting accent light at 36". You could get RapidLED solderless LEDs and driver, and a 36" stevesleds HD heatsink, and assemble everything without any soldering. I'm not sure how much It'd cost to ship to canada, but it's $32 for the heatsink, and $65 for the LEDs before shipping. The led mix would be 10 standard red and 3 standard blue leds.

Another option is to get some aluminum C-channel from your friendly home improvement store and slap a few rows of RGB led strips on. You'd get 5 rows if you buy the typical 5m strip, and that should get you enough red (plus some blue and green; you can experiment) to at least see if more is worth pursuing.


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post #37 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SpringHalo View Post
Can you adjust brightness? I thought you mentioned in the original post that you had a Satellite plus, which would be used for the single color accent. If it's not a Sat+ Pro, you might not be able to try that either. In that case, my only cheap non-DIY suggestion is trying out "Marineland Red Accent Hidden LED System" as they're going out of production and are $20 each instead of $50. The issue I see with that option though, is that it uses deep red 660nm LEDs, which are only 1/3 the brightness (to your eyes) than the typical 630nm LEDs. Combine this with the low power of the LEDs (72x 0.06W), they're only equivalent to a couple of red 3W diodes.

I don't like recommending DIY to people who would rather get pre-made, but it might be the best option to get your red-boosting accent light at 36". You could get RapidLED solderless LEDs and driver, and a 36" stevesleds HD heatsink, and assemble everything without any soldering. I'm not sure how much It'd cost to ship to canada, but it's $32 for the heatsink, and $65 for the LEDs before shipping. The led mix would be 10 standard red and 3 standard blue leds.

Another option is to get some aluminum C-channel from your friendly home improvement store and slap a few rows of RGB led strips on. You'd get 5 rows if you buy the typical 5m strip, and that should get you enough red (plus some blue and green; you can experiment) to at least see if more is worth pursuing.

I use the Fluval for the main light, it does all the heavy lifting. Average 100+ PAR @ substrate level.

I use a 50/50 cool white / actinic blue 15 watt modular strip for helping counter the yellowy look of the Fluval.

I was, not anymore, using a 24" Sat+ non-pro "just because". The reds on it are horrendously low powered.

After diving in deeper, testing + measuring things, I am not reaching sufficient CO2 levels nor am I getting the most out of my ferts, so I am going to tackle CO2 and ferts first, look for a response and then possibly look into lighting.

For CO2, I am going to go ahead and opt for a much larger filter, pump more CO2 into the reactor and make sure I keep it at suffiencent levels throughout the photo period. This will also help with flow in the tank, I am noticing some dead spots as the filter ages + more plant growth.

I just fixed a few issues with my auto doser, so my ferts "should" be up to spec for the time being (until I inevitably roll my own blends).

I'm with @OVT on this one, I want to see if "over the counter" common LED's can get some nice reds. I can't see this tank being torn down for a while, so I'm excited to see what I can get out of it.

I will look up that Marineland one tho....
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post #38 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 03:07 PM
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https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/

Pick one for supplemental color.. Pretend it's a tube..

ask yourself what is the difference between apparently successful BML's (extinct) and current fixtures..

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post #39 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 03:21 PM
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Though I'm not sure of the cost this thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bu...lights.390915/ would indicate that they are open to customizing the leds used.
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post #40 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 03:34 PM
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...4KC494dNvF9ZJu

There is a lot of work going on in trying to "stimulate" anthrocyanin (red -ish pigments) production w/ LED's.. so take heart..

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post #41 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/

Pick one for supplemental color.. Pretend it's a tube..

ask yourself what is the difference between apparently successful BML's (extinct) and current fixtures..
And I was hopping for the intimate details from @jeffkrol.
$120 for 24".

The freshwater planted tank on their site is ... um, planted:

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post #42 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 04:06 PM
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That's my tank :/

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post #43 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 04:10 PM
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And I was hopping for the intimate details from @jeffkrol.
$120 for 24".

The freshwater planted tank on their site is ... um, planted:

Do your own homework.. like the rest of us...

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post #44 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 04:19 PM
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Do your own homework.. like the rest of us...
Deal, I'll send you another watch.
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post #45 of 60 (permalink) Old 06-14-2018, 04:33 PM
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In case you guys are interested, I discussed many of these aspects of lighting from the perspective of a photochemist here:

https://barrreport.com/articles/ligh...nted-tanks.48/

In terms of purely harvesting energy, plants are quite undemanding and almost any wavelengths will do. However, besides chlorophyll and some auxiliary pigments most of you are familiar with, there are many more photoactive compounds present in the plants, i.e. photoreceptors such as UVR8, cryptochrome, photothropin, phytochrome which are responsible for governing many processes within the plants. Unfortunately, these mechanisms are still relatively poorly understood, and even more so for aquatic plants. Some of the examples are discussed in the article above and the literature provides many examples where induction of pigment formation is wavelength-dependent (especially for UVA and blue light).

Some things might not be discovered yet at all - for instance, recently so called "orange carotenoid protein" has been discovered in cyanobacteria. This protein triggers synthesis of carotenoids upon exposure to blue/cyan light. Interestingly, it absorbs around 470-490 nm, exactly where most of the LEDs nowdays lack emission the most. Could such protein exist in plants too? I don't know, we don't seem to know yet.

As a photochemist, I would love do some experiments regarding this, but I don't have the time and money for this right now.

Loving the discussion though!
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Last edited by acino; 06-14-2018 at 04:54 PM. Reason: my English
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