Son of Kahuna (56K!)

[travis]

Steve, this is definitely one of the best threads I've ever read here on PT. I'm just now realizing that I've spent most of the night poring over the details of your amazing setup. You've done an incredible job with every aspect of this tank. Just looking at your photos of the fish and the aquascape shows how well it's paying off. Fantastic job.

I'm sorry but I had to laugh when you mentioned the issues you had with your OC canister leaking. I just set up a dual OC system (simple series plumbing) for a client and had the exact same issue with both canisters. This was my first time using OCs so, at my wit's end after trying to resolve the leaking problems with no luck, I called Ocean Clear hoping that they would have some advanced technical advice on how to fix things. I spoke to a woman named Pinkie who, after I gave her an exhaustive description of my problem and the lengths I had gone to to resolve it, told me that I just needed to whack them with a hammer to seal them. Problem solved. Unbelievably simple

I've had GDA problems similar to yours in tanks I've set up that use MH lighting (both FW and SW), however I rarely have serious GDA issues in tanks with fluorescent lighting. Although my evidence is only anecdotal, I suspect that the more intense, focused nature of MH lamps contributes to the likelihood of GDA because it causes much more glare from the inner surfaces of the tank, making them a ripe target for algae. I've got a 125G planted tank with 2x250w MH lamps over it that requires regular cleaning to prevent a film of GDA from covering the glass. I also find this to be the case in many MH-driven reef tanks.

I've recently had good luck in reducing the build-up of GDA in my planted tank by cutting back on trace/Fe dosing. My current theory is that excess micronutrients (iron is my primary suspect because I like to dose a lot of it), in the presence of very intense light, can lead to GDA problems. In the last two weeks I've cut back my trace/Fe dosing by 50% and have seen a considerable decrease in the amount of GDA on my glass. Again, I have no hard evidence that this is the case, but from my experience it's a strong possibility. It's possible that by adding all of those stem plants you did something similar, in that the fast-growing stem plants you added helped pull excess micros from the water and deprived the GDA of one of its primary drivers. And the additional filtration you've recently added definitely doesn't hurt.

It's also possible that Maracyn has had some effect on your GDA (and if that's the case I'm going to buy a bucket of the stuff), but I have my doubts. Maracyn is basically just erythromycin, an anti-biotic effective against some types of gram-negative bacteria. BGA (not actually an algae at all but a cyanobacteria) happens to be one of those gram-negative bacteria that is unusually susceptible to it. I would be surprised if erythromycin is as effective against true algae like GDA, although I could be completely wrong on that one.

In any case it's good to hear that things are looking up. I'll be following this thread closely from now on. But right now you've inspired me - I'm off to shop for Mazzei venturis

[scolley]

Originally Posted by macclellan

Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?

Good question. Answer: Nothing since this algae took off. Before that was another matter though...

For most of the life of my tank, my maintenance regimen has as follows:

Daily
Feed Fish (much of that can be automated - I choose not to)

Weekly
30 minute algae clean and plant trim

Monthly
15 minute test of pH probe
30 sec check of water pressure

Every Two Months
30 minute mixing of new fert stock and refilling fert jugs

Quarterly
1 hour filter media change

Every Nine Months
30 minute change of DI carbon matrix filters

Annually
1 hour replacement of UV lamp
30 minute replacement of Halogen lamps
30 minute replacement of pH probe

My regimen will get back to that soon enough. And IMO, that is pretty low maintenance for a 180g planted tank with 9 adult discus - probably approaching some kind of theoretical minimum, provided you strive to have a tank that also looks very attractive. If you lower your aesthetic standards, you could get away with less maintenance I'm sure.

And all that does not include one reality of this tank - on multiple occasions I have tinkered with my aquascape and plants around to find the optimal mix for what I'm trying to do. That has taken AT LEAST 20 hours work, twice in the 9-10 months I've this tank up.

So, is it fair to look at the maintenance schedule above and say that is "THE" maintenance schedule for this tank? No. I continue to tinker with plant variations, and algae control. And that takes very significant amounts of additional time. Instead I would like to think of this a "usually" low maintenance tank... one slowly making its way to an "always" low maintenance planted discus tank.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by travis

Although my evidence is only anecdotal, I suspect that the more intense, focused nature of MH lamps contributes to the likelihood of GDA because it causes much more glare from the inner surfaces of the tank, making them a ripe target for algae. I've got a 125G planted tank with 2x250w MH lamps over it that requires regular cleaning to prevent a film of GDA from covering the glass. I also find this to be the case in many MH-driven reef tanks.

Thanks for the kind words Travis! And thanks for the info!

My tank is in a corner near windows on two sides. And for a few minutes each day actually gets direct morning sunlight. A bad thing I know. And I've watched this with great interest, trying to correlate it to that GDA growth areas, and cannot. But I can back you up and say it absolutely follows the halogen lights. Any place on the tank wall that has a halogen shadow gets markedly reduced algae. It's still there, but less.

And I find the Fe comment fascinating. My records indicate that I began dosing iron - separate from my micros, 1 week prior to my GDA explosion. This is a factor that I'm going to have to keep my eye on...

As for the Maracyn, the last time that worked, it was done in conjunction with shutting down ALL micro dosing for about 10 days. So even in that case, I was not changing a single factor. And this potentially lends credibility to your Fe observation. I'm REALLY going to have to keep my eye on that.

I too spoke to a woman at Red Sea, who gave me the same advice. And I too am an Ocean Clear, filter changin', hammer whacker. No other way to do it. That said, when I installed this second one last week, the little o-ringed air outlet on top had to be screwed down REALLY hard. Like with pliers - to keep it from leaking. I was afraid I was going to break it. Bottom line - I think they have some QA issues and tolerance issues with the manufacturing of those top pieces.

[Hop]

Just wanted to say that I love this picture and bring some color to this page of the thread


Glad to see you are still going strong!

[scolley]

Thanks Hop! I would not be doing this if it weren't for your Aquacontroller recommendation years ago. BEST investment in this hobby I ever made! Thanks.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I had to go back to my maintenance schedule a couple of posts ago and add in DI filter and pH probe changes. Sorry.

[Hop]

Originally Posted by scolley

Thanks Hop! I would not be doing this if it weren't for your Aquacontroller recommendation years ago. BEST investment in this hobby I ever made! Thanks.

And in the interest of full disclosure, I had to go back to my maintenance schedule a couple of posts ago and add in DI filter and pH probe changes. Sorry.

They are great! I'm hoping to move up from the Jr later this year to the III or pro... Not that I really need all that controllability, but I like the buttons

The tank really is looking nice BTW!

[scolley]

In the pics below you can see the three algaes I'm battling: GDA, Thread, and some green algae on the sand.


Thread Algae
You can't really see the thread algae directly. There's not great gobs of it. But in these pics you can see many plants with large pearling bubbles around their leaf edges. That's the tread algae pearling. It's hard to see the aglae. But it's there.

As some of you will know, I had a tank once that had this stuff as a pestilence of biblical proportions. So it DOES scare me and get my attention. But I've come to understand it too. At least in my tanks. This stuff arrives in high light, high current, when PO4 approached 2.0.

Lately my tank has been ripping through Phosphate, with all the new stem plants I have growing. So I've been dosing to a bit above 2.0 to keep it from getting too low during the day. This next week I'm going to reduce my PO4 dosing just a bit, and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that this stuff will diminish. Or I could shut off my 2nd filter and pump combo. That would do it too. And finally, I can reduce my photoperiod. Bottom line, I've go options. I'm going to try the PO4 reduction first.



Green Algae on the Sand
I don't know what this stuff is. I've gotten it multiple times on this tank, and have been watching it closely. It has a BGA look to it once it get's going like in the pic below. Except that it's not blueish. The first time I saw it I hit it with Maracyn, and absolutely nothing happened to it so I manually removed it - siphon off affected sand, chlorox soak sand, rinse and return sand to tank. When in came back, I tried a higher dose of Maracyn. Seemed to make my GDA go away, but had no effect on this stuff.

I've noticed that when it starts - a few weeks after a manual cleaning - it starts by greening up large chunks of sand. Not the little normal sand grains mind you, but only on bigger stuff. In particular, I've got power sand that has worked it's way to the surface, and it ALWAYS hits that stuff first. Then the big sand grains, and finally spreads to normal sand grains.

It only grows on sand, where light hits it. Does not seem to spread to plants. So IMO it's one of the "silica" loving algaes - as is the thread alga I mentioned previously. Never had either in a tank without sand.

And BTW, it's already gone. Did another manual removal this morning. What a PITA. It will say away for a month or two. I just wish it would STAY gone. I gather heavy dosing of Excel can do it. But that's going to have to wait until I get the other algae taken care of. Don't want to change too many variables at once (again).



Green Dust Algae (GDA)
Boy, is this stuff my nemisis. Without this, my tank really would be low maintenance. But this stuff is like the freaking Energizer bunny, it just keeps going. Or maybe like Jason from Halloween, it keeps coming back. Doesn't matter what I do it seems.

If you've been following this thread you know that I recently made a number of changes that had an immediate and significant difference in this stuff. But now it's back. Not as bad as it had been before the recent changes, but bad enough. You can see 4 days worth in the pictures. So what has changed?

As I mentioned, I've increased my phosphates a bit. But kind of doubt that's it.

I stopped that Maracyn dosing. That could very well be it... the Maracyn knocked it back, and it just took awhile to get really cranking again.

The stem plants that were supposed to help don't seem to have made a difference. They have all doubled in size since I got them a couple of weeks ago. In one pic you can see the Rotalla wallichii pearling its brains out. It's hilarious how much pearling these plants are doing. All the stems are growing nicely. But they definately are not helping the GDA. At the rate they are growing in 3-4 weeks there will be no place for the discus to swim. It is officially a heavily planted tank now. And the GDA persists.

The only other stuff I changed recently - before the GDA receeded - was changes in my filtration. And that has not changed, but now it's back.

So it's looking like it must have been the Maracny that made the difference. But that stuff cost mucho denaro for a 180, so I'm going to try Travis' suggestion of reducing iron dosing. I'll going to stop my daily supplimental ECA (ADA Fe drops) dosing for a week, and see it that helps. If not, I'm going to try the Maracyn again. Not because I think that is a long term solution - I don't. But I am curious to know conclusively if that is what has caused it to temporarily receed for me (twice now).














As always, you can click these pics to get a close up if you need to see the scary algae up close.

[lauraleellbp]

Have you considered fert tabs or making fert balls out of Laterite as an iron source instead of dosing iron?

Algae or no- the tank looks amazing!!!

[scolley]

Thanks Laura, but I assume you mean using that as a type of root ball. If so, sounds like a great way to keep iron out of your water column. But, that would be a bit tough in this tank. The substrate is all sand, with no plants in it. All the plants are in shallow pots of Aquasoil, covered with sand. I COULD cram some root balls into the pots. But it would be tricky, as I try REAL hard not to disturb the soil under the sand (AS wants to rise above the sand - like big kernals of popcorn in a bag - same principal, big bits come to the top).

BUT if it turns out that the Fe reduction makes a big difference, it would DEFINATELY be worth the trouble, because regular tank wall scraping is a major PITA and time sink.

So, just in case... how do you keep those laterite balls together? What binds them?

Thanks.

[lauraleellbp]

I haven't actually made any Laterite balls... yet... I'm debating if I want to use Laterite as a substrate underlayer or try to make balls? I'll have tons of swords in my tank, so I'll need iron, but I'm doing my best to have to minimize my fert dosing; low light setup for me. I'm going to run a search now and see if there's anything on the forum, actually... I'll post you the thread if I find anything good...

[lauraleellbp]

This thread has some promising ideas; I like the Laterite ice cubes so far, personally! http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/su...ting-tank.html

Similar thread- looks like the source of the ideas in the other: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/su...-laterite.html

[BiscuitSlayer]

scolley -

I know you aren't a proponent of boosting CO2 as an algaecide, but the one time I had GDA woes as you do, I boosted my CO2 a bit and it disappeared almost overnight. I have kept my CO2 levels at that rate ever since, and my flora and fauna are doing better than excellent at this time. I consider my setup to be at the higher end of the spectrum with regards to light output, tank depth, etc. Since light is the driving factor, I thought maybe I was a tad deficient in the CO2 department.

I am not suggesting you do the same. I am merely sharing my experience. GDA was a pretty severe issue with me with respect to algae problems. Now it is a thing of the past (except for weekly minor cleanings right before the water change).

[scolley]

Originally Posted by lauraleellbp

I'll have tons of swords in my tank, so I'll need iron...

Thanks for the links Laura! I've got swords too, and frankly they are sucking wind. They have been moved to a place where they get little light, and they don't get NEAR enough Fe. But I've been afraid to put too much in the water column. Maybe your links will direct me to how to make those lovely larterite balls! (Haven't checked yet...) But FWIW, to date, while the tank was small, the BEST substrate I have used thus far in my few planted-tank-years is laterite. Or at least that's how it worked out for me.

Originally Posted by BiscuitSlayer

I know you aren't a proponent of boosting CO2 as an algaecide, but the one time I had GDA woes as you do, I boosted my CO2 a bit and it disappeared almost overnight.

Well, you've clearly read my rants about using CO2 for purposes other than feeding plants. It's a little like a UV... IMO if you are using one just to suppress green water, you are avoiding addressing the real problem. Same with overdosing with CO2.

However, that postion is philosophical, not practical. Right now I've got a major GDA problem. If increased CO2 can make it go away and stay away, that sounds nice. The question is... do I to keep it elevated? And if so, how high?

I have a couple of Bamboo (Wood) shrimp that I KNOW from foolish experience have a real problem with 40+ ppm CO2. I've killed them before with that. So, how high does it need to be to get GDA under control? And how high do you need to keep it?

Thanks for the help folks. Really.

[lauraleellbp]

Just from what I've read (since I run only low tech tanks) 20-30ppm CO2 seems about average in high light tanks?

[BiscuitSlayer]

Read them? I use them as a guidelines and starting points! Your philosophies are taken to heart by me when I start researching issues to address problems. I definitely do not want you to overdose CO2.

What I am suggesting is that because of your higher light output from the MH pendants, I feel like you might be injecting CO2 possibly on the lower side of the recommended PPM. I think that there is a direct relationship between light intensity and CO2 injection. When you have a tremendous amount of light penetrating the tank such as yours and mine, I feel that it sometimes warrant injecting CO2 at slightly higher levels to keep things balanced.

If I were going to tweak the CO2 as a possible remedy to the situation, I would do it alone without making any other changes to the system/setup/parameters. I would make the changes in very small increments as to not throw the entire system out of balance. I would also let a minor change go for a week before assessing the impact. If I did start to see results, I would probably back off of the tweaking and possibly even go in a lower direction to see if I could manipulate the algae and get it to become worse again. Based on what I have seen with my own personal setup, the results can be clearly seen in a relatively short period of time. If you are at 20 PPM of CO2 right now with the GDA, then maybe 25 PPM is an optimal rate to keep things balanced out.