Son of Kahuna (56K!)

[scolley]

Originally Posted by BiscuitSlayer

I hate to make it sound like I like it when you have a problem like this, but the fact of the matter is when you figure it out and share your knowledge we will all gain from it.

That's OK. That's why I post, and try to keep good records about what REALLY happened in my tanks. My only concern is that for us to learn, I've got to figure this one out. Not a guaranteed outcome I'm afraid...

Originally Posted by gmccreedy

Scolley,

Not sure if you do this already, but with those LFS test kits, I do use a larger test sample then they request. For instance i use 10 to 20 ml reference solution instead of my tests 5ml reference. This allows me to break up the single degree results into 0.25 degree results. Follow? This may help you narrow the margin a bit more.

Without looking to deep into this discussion, out of curiosity, have you backed off a little on your light durations? Could this help ease the algae fight for a while?

I did know about the test kit trick, but frankly hadn't used it in a while to the reminder is good. But I'm not worried about the CO2. Where ever it is, it's in acceptable ranges. My plants are pearling pretty well every day. It's not like they are not photosynthesizing.

As for backing off on the light... good question. But a few months ago I had this problem, and I INCREASED the photoperiod to fight this. I figured that using light as my throttle, my short photoperiods were not getting the job done. So I figured I'd increase it to help push my plants into high gear.

It didn't seem to make a big difference with the algae. But the plants liked it.

[Brilliant]

Well that does suck. I get some green algae on my discus tank glass so I am trying out a new idea. I have a bunch of floating plants and I plan on making a channel around the perimeter of the tank.

I like the floating plants but they get overgrown quickly. I am hoping this helps keeps them in check and keeps some light off the glass...I have no green algae on my glass where its shaded by the floating plants.

I think the green algae on glass is caused by intense or long light. I dont dose my discus tank at all. I am changing water and with the forest of floating plants its low on nutrients.

Oh yeah decreasing the photoperiod in my 75g put a considerable dent in the growth rate of algae on the glass. There no shading that tank...

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Brilliant

Oh yeah decreasing the photoperiod in my 75g put a considerable dent in the growth rate of algae on the glass.

Well I've been battling this problem since this tank started, to some degree or another.

For the 1st 6 months my photo period was 7.5 hrs, with a 90 minute siesta in the middle (9 hour lapsed time). But since that wasn't working, I eliminated the siesta, and boosted my photoperiod to be 2 hours after the sun comes up until sundown. That's about 9 hours right now. Will get longer as we approach summer. But the point is... I never had a long photoperiod and I had this problem, and I'm not particularly long now.

I KNOW that I should only try one variable at a time, but I'm getting desperate. So I am dumping a ton of stems in the tank for a while. Well maybe not a ton, but about 40 stems of Anacharis (Egeria najas), 25 stems Green Temple (Hygrophilia corymbosa), 25 stems broad leaf Ludwigia (Ludwigia repens), 40 stems of Rotalla Wallichii (Rotalla wallichii), and about 25 stems of Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis). Maybe that will make a dent.

And I am ALSO starting a 5 day course of Maracyn. As I've mentioned before, I keep detailed records. And a few months ago I mistakenly thought that I was getting BGA. I was wrong. It was different. But in my mistaken notion of having BGA I did a panic 5 day course of Maracyn. And to my surprise, it seems to completely eradicate the GSA. Now obviously it has come back. But it seemed to work once. I'm gonna try it again. And maybe the stems can keep it at bay. At least till I can get my 2nd Ocean Clear with the big biofilter up, running and mature.

This hobby just NEVER gets boring.

[Bert H]

Hey Steve, I haven't been around here much lately, but I always enjoy reading your threads. Sorry to hear about your gsa/gda battles. Here's my experience with gda, experience only, since I offer no answers. I have 3 tanks - 2 - 50's and a 10. All are pressurized, dosed via modified EI.

The AGA 50 is lit via a 96W AHS kit plus a 30W std strip. Rarely gets any gda, though I wipe the glass weekly with my water changes, I could easily go 2-3 weeks without needing to wipe down. This tank's photoperiod is 1.5 hours longer than the others (9.5 hours vs 8)

The Oceanic 50 is lit via 2 - 55W AHS lights/reflectors. This tank is on a back wall which faces 2 windows which face east - meaning in the mornings, you could argue it gets hit with a fair amount of 'brightness' though not necessarily sunlight. This tank needs weekly wiping for gda or in 3 weeks it will look like your pic does.

The 10 is lit via 36W ahs kit. It lies somewhere in between the 2 50's in gda levels and wiping requirements.

I have tried leaving gda alone for 2 months, then wiping, vaccumming, and found no difference other than streaks on the glass from snails which do slowly eat the gda. Filter maintenance (Renas on the 50's and HOB on the 10) doesn't have any effect on amount of gsa. The only thing which I believe (no scientific proof here) improved the situation some was cutting down on the photoperiod and my micro dosing. For a while, I was adding micros daily and noticed that I was having more gda than ever before, including getting some on Anubias leaves. When I cut this down, it improved it some. I suppose I could really try to narrow this down and get more specific needs, but I just don't have the time nor the inclination to get very scientific and get the 'perfect' balance. After all, it's a hobby, which is supposed to relax me and provide enjoyment, right?

Anyways, sorry for the ramblings, but just thought I'd throw a small tidbit at you there.

BTW, tank and fish are gorgeous, even with the gsa! No, it never does get boring - thankfully!

[scolley]

Thanks for the input Bert! It's a few good data points from which to try to draw conclusions from. If I'm reading it right, it doesn't sound like ambient sunlight is a significant factor, nor is overall level of light. But photo period and excess micros might be. And for you, the "let it grow through the life-cycle" thing made no difference.

Thanks. That's information to meditate on for a while... Please correct me if I missed something.

My records seem indicate that my photo period change had no impact on things though. I went back and checked. So I cannot explain why our observations contradict. And your observations agree with Brilliant's. Not sure why mine seems to be different.

But I can say that my GDA is in major retreat right now!

I just got finished cleaning the tank walls, and there was virtually none to be found. A few tiny spots that I had clearly missed in prior cleanings, but the walls themselves were clean. Now, I had cleaned the walls two days ago. But it's been weeks since I could go two days and see no visible GDA grow.

So what has changed?

1) I dropped in all the stem plants I mentioned previously.
2) I've been dosing Maracyn daily. I'm on day 5 of a 7 day treatment.
3) I installed the new Ocean Clear 340 plus a new Pump to push it. So that means I'm pushing an addtional 250 (approx) GPH of water through the tank (new pump at 500+ vs. Eheim Pro II at 250) and that I pulled out a mature biofilter, with clogged mechanical filtration, and replaced it with fresh mechanical filtration and with zero biological filtration (it's brand new)
4) I replaced my "new" micron filter on the original Ocean Clear 340 (because its flow had eroded down to a trickle and pressure had climbed to 10 psi!). The replacement filter was actually an old one that I had blasted in Chlorox for days. In the process of doing that I found that my filter's outlet at the bottom had become clogged with grunge. So replacing the filter itself may have had no difference. But my flow rate through it (with the grunge cleared out) probably improved my flow from something like 100 gph to around 350 gph. Big difference.

So... can I say what has made the difference? Absolutely not. But things seem to be massively improved. It looks so good, that I'll be really surprised if things don't still look good in a week. (He says with fingers crossed.)

Sorry that I went and changed multiple factors at once. So there is no one thing we can point to if this works. But I was getting desperate. Sorry. It was getting to be a real problem. And for someone that has had real algae problems before, I was not going to let it happen again.

I guess we'll see in a week if it makes any difference!

[Bert H]

Whatever the reason(s), I'm glad it's under retreat! It may well be a combination of all your variables which is the reason. After all, it is a miniature eco-system we have in our tanks, and all have their own fulcrums under which they are balanced.

[BiscuitSlayer]

Originally Posted by scolley

Sorry that I went and changed multiple factors at once. So there is no one thing we can point to if this works. But I was getting desperate. Sorry. It was getting to be a real problem. And for someone that has had real algae problems before, I was not going to let it happen again.

I am glad things are working out, but I am bummed out that you threw so much ammo at the problem at one time. I would have liked to see how much of an impact the myacin had alone.

I wonder how much the stems will actually help if it is a nutrient overload situation. I would imagine the growth rates might show something.

Keep us posted on the outcome!

[scolley]

Wow! I'm just knocked out. There is STILL no GDA! This makes 5 days since I last cleaned the walls. Even at its best, this tank has NEVER gone 5 days and not had new GDA evident. So something I did, or a combination, has made an unambiguous difference.

Was it the Maracyn? Lots of stems? New filter? Better flow on the old? Or a combination? I'm sure I'll never know. And I'm sorry that I don't have something learned that I can pass along - other than that this combo makes a BIG difference.

I haven't changed my lighting at all. But I have changed my dosing. Kind of. With all these stems, needless to say I had to increase dosages. But I've been testing almost daily, and I've made sure I'm keeping my levels at N-14, P-1.5-2, K-20+. I've not changed my micros, except that I've moved my ECA (ADA Fe) from 8 drops/day to 12.

In other words, IMO the loss of GDA is not due to a fert change.

But the real thing that has knocked me out is the improvement in how the tank looks. I've been so focused on Discus and keeping the tank low maintenance, that I've completely ignored what a WONDERFUL canvas a 180g is for doing spectacular things with plants. I'm really taken with the increase in beauty this temporary addition of plants is to the tank.

One way or another, I'm gonna have to figure out a way to keep some of these stems without massively increasing the work load.

Always nice to have a new challenge!


PS - The Anacharis (Egeria najas) just melted. Don't know if it was the temp or what, but it just plain died. All of it.

PPS - And the Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) is just kind of hanging in... slow growth, slow dieback of old lower leaves. This plant is just pretty much maintaining, unlike the Green Temple, Ludwigia, and Rotalla which seem to be thriving. Glad I had the presence of mind to select an assortment.

[Buck]

Well thats great news Steve, glad you are on the mend.

I still say its the stems that did the trick. You very rarely see a tank loaded with stems get algae. It seems its always a tank with a slight imbalance in ferts and no stems gobbling them up that get whacked.

If only plants could talk...

Heh, if you are the patient type and want to test the theory you could always yank the stems again leaving the same flow/ filter adjustments but I fear it would rear its ugly head again.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Buck

Heh, if you are the patient type and want to test the theory you could always yank the stems again leaving the same flow/ filter adjustments but I fear it would rear its ugly head again.

I'm definitely patient Buck. But I kicked a number of things in at the same time because I had a major problem underway. And having a planted discus tanks makes problems a little more urgent. The two are a bit more difficult to keep in balance than your typical plants with tetras tank. So I got aggressive before it got out of control.

But I WOULD like to know (and share) what made the difference.

If it starts to come back soon, before I try shutting off the filter, or pulling the stems, that will point to the Maracyn. So I'm going to let things sit for a while. And if it returns within a month, I'm gonna hit it with Maracyn again - just to see if that was it.

And if it does not return (in a major way) in a month, I'll try pulling the stems for a little while. And I'll try shutting off the new filter too. The results of that could be telling.

But even if the GSA does not come back, that does not mean one of those two factors didn't kill it. Not growing back from an "remission" state is not the same thing as dying when it is "dominant" IMO.

I definitely want to know what's at the root of this problem. And I definitely want to share it with the community. If it can be figured out, it should be shared!

[gmccreedy]

With no conclusive evidence, this is a tough issue to crack for sure Steve, but I am really curious if the filter media change was the winning element here? Could it be that GSA is really water borne algae that evenutally eventually attaches when the timing is right? Is it possible that your media was able to strip it out of the water column?

Don't know much about algae, so I could be just a complete idiot here. But I must say, you went from a very poor condition, to a very positive one very quickly.

Could it be a competition issue with the stems? I guess... but I am not sure how much you have packed in there to draw conclusion on that.

Glad to see you up and rocking again!

P.S. Thanks for the PM.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by gmccreedy

Could it be that GSA is really water borne algae that evenutally eventually attaches when the timing is right?

I said GSA before. Sorry! I meant GDA.

While I had, and have, GSA. It was the GDA that was killing me.

Time and a bit of experimentation will tell on the cause.



PS - This is the 2nd time that a Maracyn treatment proceeded a major retreat of GDA. If I have to do this a third time, with the same results, I think we'll have a firm conclusion. But as of this point, I'm willing to call it a possible coincidence.

[macclellan]

Hi Scolley, I haven't followed your thread all the way, but glad to hear you've gotten the GDA managed if not beaten.

Originally Posted by scolley

I've been so focused on Discus and keeping the tank low maintenance

Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?

[territhemayor]

Originally Posted by macclellan

Remind me what about this tank is low maintanence?!?

yeah, discus require a lot of maintenance.
Would you go a week without a water change?

[BiscuitSlayer]

Originally Posted by scolley

PPS - And the Wisteria (Hygrophila difformis) is just kind of hanging in... slow growth, slow dieback of old lower leaves. This plant is just pretty much maintaining, unlike the Green Temple, Ludwigia, and Rotalla which seem to be thriving. Glad I had the presence of mind to select an assortment.

I'll bet the Wisteria explodes soon. I had the same thing happen with some wisteria that I bought, and after about 1 month, the growth really took off. It was like it had to go through some adjustment to my tank parameters or something.