Son of Kahuna (56K!)

[jphan]

wow! lol

[macclellan]

I agree with the GDA being linked to biofilter maturity. I had the nastiest outbreak I'd ever seen in a new tank (it literally coated 80% of the tank), despite being precycled and not being a 'new' tank (the tank/substrate had been used for a different setup previously, so no silicates or whatever). In a few weeks it was gone. I never had the GSA problems like that though, so I can't comment there.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Steve Kelly

Steve,

For general reference purposes, I would like to know the following:

1. With a new 25 micron cartridge in your OC filter what does the pressure gauge indicate with the Poseidon PS1 running full tilt?

2. If you close the valve(s) on the 'Output' side of the OC what will the pressure rise to?

Steve

My pressure gauge does not just show just pressure caused by the filter. Due to all the back pressure of my extensive plumbing after the filter, it's a little elevated. So,

With brand new plumbing (not gunked up), and new filter media, my pressure on the Ocean Clear 340 was dead on 5 PSI. And very low flow out of the filter.

I changed my filter media at 10 PSI.

When I bleached and pressure washed the filter, my pressure dropped to 8 PSI, but climbed within days back to 10. Moral of the story... buy a new cartridge.

With a new cartridge in, my PSI is 7.25. I assume the drop from the original 5 is due to the gunk in my extensive lines. And water gushing out of the filter.

And when my Poseidon is unrestricted, but I shut off the outflow of my Ocean Clear, the PSI sits firmly on 10 PSI - just like you.

Oh yeah, it's worth noting that I've change the media two times now - once with a "cleaned" cartridge, and once with a new cartridge (since the cleaned one clogged so fast - just like for you), and the screw top gave me no trouble at all either time. Since the first time was a bear, I'm wondering if maybe it just has to seat itself, or compress, or something. Either way, the seal is no problem now. Just needs a hammer.

Originally Posted by bgoodwins

You might try stepping up to a higher micron size. @5 is pretty small for general purpose unless you have larger (100?) micron filters before it in series.

I'm not sure what I said before... it's a 25 micron filter. Which is small technically, but I have filter socks on my outflows, so it doesn't get gunked up with big chunks. Only little stuff makes it to it. And it was 6-8 months before I had to change it. So I'm not going to sweat it. 6 months or more between filter maintenance is just fine in my book.

Originally Posted by bgoodwins

Scolley, did you ever happen to make that outflow diagram? Color me interested

I need to finish that diagram don't I? Sorry. It wound up being a ton of work, and I've got a lot going on in my personal life keeping me busy. But I'll try to get to it within a month or two. Promise.

Originally Posted by samckitt

This is just beautiful, that is all I can say, beautiful.

Thanks! You should see the algae!

Originally Posted by Oqsy

good stuff as always steve

Thanks buddy! Always nice to hear from you!

Originally Posted by jphan

why do u ahve a wireless router for your tank? lol

I trust you read ganjero's reply...

Originally Posted by ganjero

its connected to an aquarium controller and sends all the info to the computer, it can send email alerts and some controllers text message alerts if something is out of balance in your tank.Then with most advance controllers you can turn things off and on through the Internet, in case you are on vacation or something like that, and I believe the owner of this tank travels a lot so its a great tool for him.

Thanks for helping me not have to type all that! You said it better than I could have.

Originally Posted by jphan

wow! lol

Thanks!

Originally Posted by macclellan

I agree with the GDA being linked to biofilter maturity. I had the nastiest outbreak I'd ever seen in a new tank (it literally coated 80% of the tank), despite being precycled and not being a 'new' tank (the tank/substrate had been used for a different setup previously, so no silicates or whatever). In a few weeks it was gone. I never had the GSA problems like that though, so I can't comment there.

I appreciate the feedback on that. Tom Barr appears to think it is a life cycle issue. And it may be, but I'm not sure it is the lifecycle of GDA. I've written quite a few PMs to people that have tried to wait it out. And I've tried it. And I've read a lot about it here, and have yet to see anything that appears to be real proof that it is a GDA lifecycle issue. And even though there is a LOT of evidence that it MIGHT be, too many people have tried to wait it out, only to have it reappear soon thereafter.

But it does seem like it might be related to the size of the biofilter. That could appear as a life-cycle thing. People think they are waiting out the algae life cycle as it gunks up their tank walls, while in actual fact the only thing that's happening is the new tank's biofilter is maturing. So they scrape the walls and "wallah! it's better!" when all that has happened is that their biofilter has become more robust over the weeks that the algae grew.

I'm not stating that that is what is happening. But I am positing it as a possibility. The one thing I can say for certain, was that it was improving a good bit until I changed my filter, and BANG! The GDA exploded.

Sounds like a biofilter issue to me.

[saint27]

I will weight in on this topic of biomedia vs. GDA. I have a 75 gallon AGA that had a fuval 305 running on it. The seal on the canister stopped sealing. This gave me a good reason to put together the sump that I have wanted to for awhile. It took me two months before I got everything together, tested and running correctly. In that time the tank got really bad algae all over the glass. You could barely see through it. I got the sump running and told myself that I would clean up the tank the following weekend. Well as the week went by I started to notice that the glass was getting cleaner. So I let it go for another week. Guess what? There is almost no trace of algae on the glass at all.

Now I don't think that the two Ottos I have in there all of a sudden got really hungry and went to town. The only thing I could think of was the increased flow and addition of biomedia is what caused the algae to die off and the glass to clear up.

[Steve Kelly]

Originally Posted by scolley

My pressure gauge does not just show just pressure caused by the filter. Due to all the back pressure of my extensive plumbing after the filter, it's a little elevated. So,

With brand new plumbing (not gunked up), and new filter media, my pressure on the Ocean Clear 340 was dead on 5 PSI. And very low flow out of the filter.

I changed my filter media at 10 PSI.

When I bleached and pressure washed the filter, my pressure dropped to 8 PSI, but climbed within days back to 10. Moral of the story... buy a new cartridge.

With a new cartridge in, my PSI is 7.25. I assume the drop from the original 5 is due to the gunk in my extensive lines. And water gushing out of the filter.

And when my Poseidon is unrestricted, but I shut off the outflow of my Ocean Clear, the PSI sits firmly on 10 PSI - just like you.

Oh yeah, it's worth noting that I've change the media two times now - once with a "cleaned" cartridge, and once with a new cartridge (since the cleaned one clogged so fast - just like for you), and the screw top gave me no trouble at all either time. Since the first time was a bear, I'm wondering if maybe it just has to seat itself, or compress, or something. Either way, the seal is no problem now. Just needs a hammer.

Sounds like a biofilter issue to me.

Steve,

Thanks for the info. It sounds like your Poseidon PS1 is a pretty close match to the old style Quiet One pump I'm using. I can see now why your second filter, the Eheim, has been so beneficial to your setup.

With a new cartridge my pressure is about 3.5 psi with a flow of at least 300~400 gph. Once the pressure rises to around 6 psi I'd say the flow drops to around 75~100 gph -- too low on my system since I only have the one pump to move water around the tank. It sure keeps the water crystal clear though.

I think the reason my cartridge in the Nu-Clear didn't last near as long as yours did has more to do with the lighter biological loading in your tank vs. mine. I have over 500 cherry red shrimp in my 90-gallon at the moment. They require a fair amount of food and are constantly stirring things up. It's definitely time to lighten the load in my tank.

I'm going to give my used 25-micron cartridge one more try by bleaching it first and then pressure washing it.

After a little research, I've come to the conclusion that all of the Ocean Clear cartridges and foam filter options can also be used in the Nu-Clear filters. I'm seriously considering trying one of the OC 25-micron carts since they're advertised as having 40 sq.ft. surface area instead of the Nu-Clear's 30 sq.ft. I also like the idea of using the foam inserts from OC to increase the biological filtration capacity of the Nu-Clear.

Steve

[neilfishguy]

I want some algea pics...PLEASE!!!!!

[scolley]

Originally Posted by saint27

I will weight in on this topic of biomedia vs. GDA....
It took me two months before I got everything together, tested and running correctly...
Well as the week went by...
So I let it go for another week. Guess what? There is almost no trace of algae on the glass at all.

I appreciate the comments. But from the sound of things this could also be another argument for it being a life cycle issue. As in you let enough time go buy, you left it undisturbed, and it corrected itself.

Only problem is, that argument does not establish clear cause (give it time) and effect (it clears up). It's ENTIRELY possible that the cause is a maturing biofilter. But as far as I can tell, it's tough to tell the difference. Unless of course I can find people that have a proven, mature, intatct biofilter that suddenly get's GDA and eradicates it by leaving it alone. But I haven't seen that yet.

Thanks for posting!

Originally Posted by Steve Kelly

I'm going to give my used 25-micron cartridge one more try by bleaching it first and then pressure washing it.

After a little research, I've come to the conclusion that all of the Ocean Clear cartridges and foam filter options can also be used in the Nu-Clear filters. I'm seriously considering trying one of the OC 25-micron carts since they're advertised as having 40 sq.ft. surface area instead of the Nu-Clear's 30 sq.ft. I also like the idea of using the foam inserts from OC to increase the biological filtration capacity of the Nu-Clear.

Steve

Please let me know if that bleach and pressure wash works for you Steve. Bleaching and using a normal hose did squat for me.

I hope you are right about the cartridges interchangability. I've got a 2nd OC340 that I've been ready to install - replacing the Eheim Pro II. But I've ordered the foam inserts for an OC 318 because it's got 200+ sf. ft. of biological media vs. the 30 or 40 in the OC 340. I don't really need any more mechanical filtering - don't think so anyway.

So I'm hoping to find this stuff is really interchangable. Thanks for the tip!

Originally Posted by neilfishguy

I want some algea pics...PLEASE!!!!!

Took some last night. Tank looked like crap. Will try to post them this weekend. Really.

[scolley]

Just to demonstrate that things aren't always perfect in paradise, here are some pics of the algae problem I've found myself in.









This was after about 5 days of no glass cleaning. You can see some spots that look recently cleaned, due to the crisp edges on the algae. But really that is just spots that I missed 5 days ago, the kicked in with a little head start on everything else.

In the last pics you can see (if you look real hard) some thread algae that has started in these "daughter shoots" of my Ozelot swords. They are in a very high flow area at the top, under the brightest light. And they did not appear until I bumped my phosphates up to 2.0. And it happened that SAME DAY. So, given what I have been through in the past with this crap, I KNOW that fast moving water, under high light, with phosphates in the 2.0 range AT LEAST is a significant contributing factor to this stuff. I'm not gonna say it causes it. There may be some other root cause. But in certain conditions (like my tanks) it remains dormant until I provide those three conditions.

I have since sniped off those daughter plants, temporarily replanted them in sand, and have thus robbed them of one of the three triggers - fast moving water. And the thread algae can no longer be seen. But they are in bright light (not as bright as the top of the tank) and phosphates are still around 2.0.

As for the GDA, it seems to be improving with time. If you've been following this thread you will know that when I changed my filter media in my Ocean Clear 340 it exploded. And immediately thereafter I was getting non-zero amonia readings. But now the amonia appears to be zero. Yet the GDA continues.

So I wonder, maybe it's not so much a biofilter "maturity" issue, as a biofilter "size" issue. Common sense dictates that your biofilter get's bigger as it matures, and ultimately settles into an optimal size. And if so, maybe while my test kits show zero ammonia, maybe it is there in very small quantities - too small for my kits to show. And if indeed GDA is linked to your biofilter size, maybe that little bit is just enough to keep triggering GDA.

This leaves me with a dilemma. I've got a now OC 340 waiting to be installed (replacing my Eheim Pro II). A 340 has the giant pleated filter plus 50 sq. ft. of biofilter material. And I've got the filter media for an OC 318 arriving in a day or so. This is a whopping 205 sq. ft. of biofilter material. And (I think) if I drop it in the 304, removing the 340 media, I've converted my 304 into a 318 - one massive biofilter. It's an option.

So I've got a few options - all involve replacing my Eheim Pro II - drop in a new OC 340 (mech + 50 sq. ft. bio) or a new OC 318 (205 sq. ft. bio). But all options involve uncertainties, and compromises.

New OC 340

• Requires an new Poseidon T1 (have one extra now) to push it. Poseidons are wicked quiet, but add 1-4 degrees of heat to the water. I don't know it the tank (and ambient room conditions) can handle that.
• Also, it may not be a large enough increase to the potential size of my biofilter. I have no idea what the size of my Eheim Pro II 2026 is that it is replacing.

New OC 318

• Needs to be fronted by a mechanical filter. That means plumbing it to be in-line with my 340. That has two big potential problems.
• My design of redundant plumbing loops is shot. If I lose this loop, it's all gone.
• Removing my Eheim Pro II (to make room in the stand) means the lose of about 250 GPH filtration. That means my total flow will only be about 300 GPH at best. That's what the OC 340 plumbing loop does now. And an OC 318 on that will only slow it down more.

And I have a third option...

New OC 340
...but running in parallel to the other 340, pushed by a single Poseidon (similar to Tom Barr's new setup)

• The major disadvantage I see here is that you might have to keep adjusting the ball valves that balance the flow between the two parallel plumbing loops.
• As one filter gunks up, you have to keep directing more flow to it, until you change the media, and then reset them again.

I'm WIDE OPEN for opinions here. If you got 'em, I'd love to hear 'em!

Thanks.

PS - you can't see the two wonderful Ozelot swords anymore - except for their shoots, because the arrived in emersed form. Those leaves all died underwater (no growth and algae covered), and all the new submerged leaves went straight to the top. I had to keep cutting them back to train them to put out lower leaves - which they are doing. But they are doing it slowly, and they are currently hidden behind the driftwood and the moss. Hopefully they will return - in submerged form - to their former emerged size before too long.

[fishman9809]

I feel bad for you man, I have a Eclipse 12 and after like 2 months, I still get this stupid algae away.

[stagius]

I really missed ur tank at the beginning.
Hope you can make it.

Is that green water? Or just GDA ?

[BiscuitSlayer]

Scolley-

Have you checked your CO2 levels though all of this? I was wondering if something might be restricted causing the CO2 flow to be less than what it should be. I realize that your aquacontroller is probably tuned into all of this, but I thought I would throw it out there.

I am a systems engineer, and I don't put too much faith in eletronics (most of the time)

[Buck]

Steve I noticed that you have a lot of root feeders like crypts,swords etc. with very few stems to absorb your fert's. I agree it could be the filter maturity issue but until it gets there you should consider floating/planting a bunch of hygro or something similar to starve the algae.
Swords and crypts wont to diddly to absolve these issues.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by BiscuitSlayer

Have you checked your CO2 levels though all of this?

fair question. answer - yes.

I've got a hand held pH meter that I use to corroborate the readings of my in-tank meterA couple of weeks ago I did a 2-point calibration of the hand held, and then tested it against reference solutions. It reads pretty accurate, and it agrees (within a small tolerance) of the reading of the in-tank meter.

As for KH, that's a little fuzzier, though I do have a Lamotte test kit which provides very precise (accurate?) results. And I use a 2nd, LFS quality, test kit to corroborate the results of that Lamotte.

In short, when I factor in margin of error, it's possible that my CO2 is as low as 24 ppm. Or it could be as high as 39. I guess a slight boost would be ok. But I'm not one to crank CO2 as an algaecide. My minimum (worst case) should be enough to support healthy, well lit, fertilized plants.

Though a small boost wouldn't hurt. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Buck

Steve I noticed that you have a lot of root feeders like crypts,swords etc. with very few stems to absorb your fert's. I agree it could be the filter maturity issue but until it gets there you should consider floating/planting a bunch of hygro or something similar to starve the algae.
Swords and crypts wont to diddly to absolve these issues.

Good point Buck. Thanks. I've got some pretty big hunks of Taiwan moss - total volume of about the size of one and a half basketballs - that should be soaking up stuff from the water column. Something is soaking it up, because if I don't dose NPK, is drops pretty precipitously.

But I will look for a short term, fert soaking possibility. Thanks.

[BiscuitSlayer]

Originally Posted by scolley

In short, when I factor in margin of error, it's possible that my CO2 is as low as 24 ppm. Or it could be as high as 39. I guess a slight boost would be ok. But I'm not one to crank CO2 as an algaecide. My minimum (worst case) should be enough to support healthy, well lit, fertilized plants.

A slight boost might help, but it sounds like you are "in the green" with your range.

I hate to make it sound like I like it when you have a problem like this, but the fact of the matter is when you figure it out and share your knowledge we will all gain from it.

I look forward to your resolution.

[gmccreedy]

Scolley,

Not sure if you do this already, but with those LFS test kits, I do use a larger test sample then they request. For instance i use 10 to 20 ml reference solution instead of my tests 5ml reference. This allows me to break up the single degree results into 0.25 degree results. Follow? This may help you narrow the margin a bit more.

Without looking to deep into this discussion, out of curiosity, have you backed off a little on your light durations? Could this help ease the algae fight for a while?