Son of Kahuna (56K!)

[fishscale]

Ah ok, I'll just wait it out then. I've been coming back to my computer to see if I can look at threads every hour. Sometimes, I think I have a problem.

[Raul-7]

Originally Posted by scolley

Yeah, I've never been sure... What I want to know is how did Raul-7 see it? I can't see it in any of the pics? Maybe I need to look harder.

On the third picture, right above the lone Discus facing the front pane.


BTW, how is the Mazzei venturi doing? Does it completely diffuse the CO2 or does it produce a mist of annoying CO2 bubbles?

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Subotaj

high level!
superb.

Thanks! You ninja posted on me BTW!

Originally Posted by Raul-7

On the third picture, right above the lone Discus facing the front pane.


BTW, how is the Mazzei venturi doing? Does it completely diffuse the CO2 or does it produce a mist of annoying CO2 bubbles?

Really? I gotta go look!

The Mazzei is doing GREAT! It WILL produce a mist, but that annoyed the heck out of me, so I tweaked it. Now it completely dissolves the CO2, and just BLASTS the pH down. So fast it's scary. Between that and the AC II, which reads pH to two decimal places, my pH is pretty much rock solid. It spends the day fluctuating by 0.02 - bouncing between 6.11 and 6.13.

If you are thinking about Mazzei's I highly recommend them! But be forewarned. I KNEW what both the pressure (in PSI) and flow (in GPH) was in my lines BEFORE I decided which one to order. So this particular Mazzei is very well matched to my application. And for me it is awesome. I will never go back to a reactor. Never.

Well, probably not anyway.

[dufus]

In post 139 pics 8 and nine he's hiding in the anubias.

[Raul-7]

Originally Posted by scolley

Really? I gotta go look!

The Mazzei is doing GREAT! It WILL produce a mist, but that annoyed the heck out of me, so I tweaked it. Now it completely dissolves the CO2, and just BLASTS the pH down. So fast it's scary. Between that and the AC II, which reads pH to two decimal places, my pH is pretty much rock solid. It spends the day fluctuating by 0.02 - bouncing between 6.11 and 6.13.

If you are thinking about Mazzei's I highly recommend them! But be forewarned. I KNEW what both the pressure (in PSI) and flow (in GPH) was in my lines BEFORE I decided which one to order. So this particular Mazzei is very well matched to my application. And for me it is awesome. I will never go back to a reactor. Never.

Well, probably not anyway.

I already bought it after you recommended it the first time! Can't wait to get it put together; just waiting for some free-time and to reinforce the floor joists.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Raul-7

I already bought it after you recommended it the first time! Can't wait to get it put together; just waiting for some free-time and to reinforce the floor joists.

Raul - I only have a single experience to go off of. But here is what I've found...

I've run some simple tests, and the degree to which you choke down your primary flow, diverting the flow to the Mazzei does not matter much. Yes, it does choke flow down to a tiny point - but only momentarily! It seems that the choke point is so well controlled (in terms of gradually reducing tubing diameter), and so brief (as in an almost immediate opening up of diameter - but not so fast as to create turbulence) that it has very, very little bearing on your GPH.

I ran tests with my plumbing bypassing the venturi completely (that's straight thought - the Mazzei is on u-shaped a bypass line), and with the plumbing's ball valve choked back enough to make the Mazzei have enough water flowing through it to suck CO2 fast enough to make my pH drop like a stone. Now the result is the kicker... the difference was SO LITTLE, I didn't even bother to write it down. I dunno... maybe 350 GPH through the line unobstructed, vs. 345 GPH with the Mazzei running full bore? I honestly don't really recall. But I do know the difference was so small I knew that it could be attributed to flaws in my measurements. In other words... its impact on flow (if sized properly) is meaningless.

Seems hard to believe, but I proved it to myself with my plumbing before I installed it in the stand.

So IF you got the RIGHT size for your plumbing, I'm sure you'll be thrilled too. Good luck with those floor joists!

[Raul-7]

Originally Posted by scolley

Raul - I only have a single experience to go off of. But here is what I've found...

I've run some simple tests, and the degree to which you choke down your primary flow, diverting the flow to the Mazzei does not matter much. Yes, it does choke flow down to a tiny point - but only momentarily! It seems that the choke point is so well controlled (in terms of gradually reducing tubing diameter), and so brief (as in an almost immediate opening up of diameter - but not so fast as to create turbulence) that it has very, very little bearing on your GPH.

I ran tests with my plumbing bypassing the venturi completely (that's straight thought - the Mazzei is on u-shaped a bypass line), and with the plumbing's ball valve choked back enough to make the Mazzei have enough water flowing through it to suck CO2 fast enough to make my pH drop like a stone. Now the result is the kicker... the difference was SO LITTLE, I didn't even bother to write it down. I dunno... maybe 350 GPH through the line unobstructed, vs. 345 GPH with the Mazzei running full bore? I honestly don't really recall. But I do know the difference was so small I knew that it could be attributed to flaws in my measurements. In other words... its impact on flow (if sized properly) is meaningless.

Seems hard to believe, but I proved it to myself with my plumbing before I installed it in the stand.

So IF you got the RIGHT size for your plumbing, I'm sure you'll be thrilled too. Good luck with those floor joists!

Thanks for the great insight as always! I'll be sure to follow up on my thread.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by plantbrain

Scolly, you have gone wild with the plumbing
Plumb wild.

Regards,
Tom Barr

This is a quote from Tom in another thread, but it is referencing my plumbing shown in this one, so I figure it is a good launching point for a discussion of what I did wrong when I built this stand and plumbing set up. There were, on my part, more than a few painful lessons learned.

Things I know now, that I WISH I knew before:

1) Getting a tank more than 18" deep (front to back) GREATLY reduces the number of commercially available stands.
Not knowing that cost me a LOT of time and some money. If you are considering a new tank, think long and hard about getting one that exceeds the 18" threshold. Far, far fewer stands are available that can accommodate a tank deeper than that.

2) You can't trust an Eheim Universal pump under pressure.
I was burned by this before. But I thought I just had a leaky pump. Nope. Eheim Universals will not hold back much pressure in-line at all. I'm not sure where the break point is, but it is much less than 5 PSI. If you put one of these pumps in an application with that kind of pressure, expect it to leak. Or if it waits awhile, and then leaks later... well, I warned you.

3) Some electrical cords won't be long enough for a 6 foot stand.
What! This was a surprise. Many, many pieces of electrical equipment for aquariums have cords less than 6', or at least not long enough to run the length of a 6' stand, once you start snaking the cord around things. I have my electrical outlets on one side of the stand - the dry side. It was a bummer when I found out that many the cords for many appliances on the other end would not reach. I was blindsided by that little surprise.

4) 1" PVC tubing would have greatly improved my flow, but at great expense.
I built my stand with 3/4" PVC through out. Upon getting my hands on a spreadsheet that could help me calculate flow and flow resistance in my plumbing, it became immediately clear that the difference between the performance of 3/4" vs. 1" plumbing was profound. But the downside is, 1" PVC costs a LOT more. For my stand it would have added up to way more than $100 more in cost. But in retrospect, it may well have been worth it.

5) Gloss, or Semigloss, varnish is not good for the inside of a stand.
When I varnished my stand, I selected a nice, attractive semigloss. And then I heavily varnished it all. It seemed like a good idea. I wanted too waterproof it all. Right? Well its a bad choice for the inside of the stand, because EVERY time you open the doors and look in... it looks WET. Great for the outside, but a nice satin finish would avoid a lot of needless stress if applied to the
inside.

6) Frequent, tap water fed, water changes, if you live is the chilly north, and if you have Discus, means you are going to have to have MASSIVE water heating capability.
When I let water flow into the tank, at normal house pressure, in the wintertime - my tank temp can drop like a stone. That meant that I had to have 3 BIG heaters to RAPIDLY warm the water if I wasn't going to put my discus into shock each time I did my nightly water change. This single factor,
combined with my refusal to put heaters in my tank, and my refusal to use Hydors with their barbed connections (vs. reliable, water tight, threaded connections) forced me into buying three HUGE Pentair heater modules. If you see the pics of my stand, you will see those three monsters dominate
over 6" feet of stand. From a space perspective, this proved to be a very costly decision.

7) It is HARD, and expensive to eliminate barbed fittings from your stand.
I decided that I wanted bullet proof plumbing, or as close as I could reasonably get. That meant refusing to use any components that required barbed connections. I know, some of you will want to debate this - sorry, it's my opinion. And yes, I DID make exceptions in my stand. But only where I was almost forced to. But this was a difficult decision. When you start eliminating components because of barbed fittings, you really begin to limit your options. In retrospect I'm TOTALLY happy with my decision - peace of mind is very valuable IMO - but it definitely made things much harder.

8) Vibration isolation is hard.
When I decided to have a pump that powered water into a passive filer, I introduced a LOT of potential vibration into the system. Now conventional wisdom says used several feet of flexible tubing after your pump to drastically reduce vibration in your plumbing/water. That's easily done. But the real hard part is eliminating the vibration in your stand (and obviously the tank) caused by mounting the pump. To reduce that to undetectable levels (by me only - who knows what the fish detect?) I had to locate some sorbothane grommets on the web. About $25 for three as I recall, to mount the pump to a vertical board. That vertical board, in turn, had to be secured to the floor of the stand, but the brackets had to be cushioned by another $20 worth of sorbothane pads. I have very little vibration now, but it was an expensive PITA.

9) Ocean Clear filters have seal problems.
I LOVE my filter. But GOSH help me when I have to clean it! I had a TERRIBLE time getting it to not leak. There is a ring on top that has to be tightened down. Tighten too little and it leaks. Too hard, and it leaks. I spent a LONG time on the phone with their tech support. Ultimately I learned that though I was hitting it with a hammer to tighten it - I wasn't hitting it hard enough! Bottom line... they are clearly used to these things leaking until someone spends serious effort whacking that sealing ring with a hammer to make it REALLY tight.

10) Two wraps of Teflon tape is enough.
The vast majority of my plumbing is threaded PVC. I did a LOT of wrapping with Teflon tape. And I came to the conclusion that if any part of a threaded connection has more than two wraps, it may bind when you connect it. Less than two wraps in a spot, and it may leak.

11) All Teflon tape is not created equal.
I'm not sure how to provide guidance on this one, but I'll just say you'll have fewer leaks - or weeping connections - if you buy the best Teflon tape you can get your hands on. Forget Home Depot. Forget the stuff that comes supplied with some components. Try Aquaticecosystems. For the few extra bucks you'll save a LOT of heart ache.

12) It a threaded connection "skips" as you are tightening it, you have a high likelihood of a leak.
I'm not sure why, but a good threaded connection is very smooth when you tighten it. As it gets tighter turning it further gets harder. But is should still be a "smooth" motion, even if difficult. If it "skips" though - hard to turn then SKIP! to a tighter point where the turning slows down again - that's the telltale sign of a bad seal. Best to unscrew, re-Teflon, and start over.

13) If you are building a threaded PVC system, buy lots and lots of PVC close nipples.
Close nipples are used to connect two female threaded PVC parts. You go through them like crazy. But many, many of your connections will be taken apart. That could be because you change the design, or it "skipped", or you did something wrong. Either way, once you unscrew a tightly screwed PVC close nipple it's ruined. Buy plenty of extras.

14) Exploding PVC!
You CAN over tighten threaded PVC. This only happened to me once, and BOY! What a surprise! Apparently PVC is pretty tough stuff, and can take a lot of pressure. So much so, that if you seriously over tighten it, when it finally gives, IF it gives, it can give with EXPLOSIVE force. I was in the stand tightening a replaced connection with some pliers and BANG! It blew into several NASTY looking pieces that could have put my eye out EASILY if I hadn't been lucky. A word to the wise.


I'm not sure if these lessons learned will help you. But if I ever undertake something like this again (not likely!) they will definately help me. Once burnt, twice shy!

Hope it helps!

[original kuhli]

Scolley, you're the man, I'm about to get started on my plumbing...very timely. I have the 1 inch FX5 deal going on, I need to do some testing to verify that the pump/chip won't fail with inline equipment, but other than that I'm ready to go.

[Defchilde]

Steve,
I have been religiously reading your treads since the “Big Clear Kahuna” build started, and I’m most impressed with the development that you have provided to the hobby in terms of pushing forth the concept of planning and designing the plumbing system as an integral part of the aquarium. Sometimes, I think that you are way too hard on yourself, most of us could not even conceive the idea of such a set-up, let alone create it with so few errors or mishaps.

Until you started these threads, it would have seemed that all filtering systems in the freshwater hobby was simply tubes connected to canister filters hanging over the tank’s walls into the water.

That said, I would like you to expand on some of your points….

Originally Posted by scolley

1) Getting a tank more than 18" deep (front to back) GREATLY reduces the number of commercially available stands.
Not knowing that cost me a LOT of time and some money. If you are considering a new tank, think long and hard about getting one that exceeds the 18" threshold. Far, far fewer stands are available that can accommodate a tank deeper than that.

Now knowing this info, would you have a stand custom-built from the start or stay within the 18” confines? I currently have a 120g which is 18” and find it limiting, and would rather have gone with a 24” tank.

Originally Posted by scolley

4) 1" PVC tubing would have greatly improved my flow, but at great expense.
I built my stand with 3/4" PVC through out. Upon getting my hands on a spreadsheet that could help me calculate flow and flow resistance in my plumbing, it became immediately clear that the difference between the performance of 3/4" vs. 1" plumbing was profound. But the downside is, 1" PVC costs a LOT more. For my stand it would have added up to way more than $100 more in cost. But in retrospect, it may well have been worth it.

I was under the impression that Pentair heater modules and Ocean Clear filers all have ¾” connectors. If you used 1” tubing, would it not cause a bottleneck at these points, reducing the flow to what would pass through? I must admit that fluid dynamics was not my best subject in college.

Also, would you still have chossen the Ocean Clear if you had known of the leak issue? Is there another filter that you wished you had chosen instead?

I hope that one day my plants and fish are as lucky as yours.

Johnny.

[Raul-7]

As always, Steve, you provide us with in-depth information and helpful tips! You're definitely an asset to this hobby.


Johnny, the Ocean Clear has 3/4" barbed fittings, but the canister's outlet/inlet are actually 1". And other than the OC, the only other canister that comes close is the Nu-Clear. But when I researched the two, the Nu-Clear has a limited range of media compared to the OC.

[scolley]

Originally Posted by original kuhli

...I'm about to get started on my plumbing...very timely. I have the 1 inch FX5 deal going on, I need to do some testing to verify that the pump/chip won't fail with inline equipment

That sounds really exciting! But honestly, I don't have a clue what you are talking about! What's an FX5? And where's the chip? Really.

Originally Posted by Defchilde

Would you still have chossen the Ocean Clear if you had known of the leak issue? Is there another filter that you wished you had chosen instead?

First, I want to thank Raul for the absolutely correct answers he provided with respect to the filter. Thanks!

But I'm REAL happy with the filter choice. It's massive. I can go digging around in the tank and really muck up the water, and in 2 hours or so it's crystal clear. I love it.

And I've figured out that I my plumbing (quite by accident!) is set up so that I can EASILY reverse the flow through the filter and use it's built in drain to back flow water through it and clean the filter. Since I installed it I've read about many people who do this. I had not planned on this benefit, but I'm anticipating that it could well be a year or more before I actually have to remove that d*mn lid, because I'll be flushing it clean with back flow.

So, no I would not want another filter. I think this is going to work out GREAT!

Also Johnny, thanks for the very kind words. Coming from you that means a lot. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Raul-7

Johnny, the Ocean Clear has 3/4" barbed fittings, but the canister's outlet/inlet are actually 1". And other than the OC, the only other canister that comes close is the Nu-Clear. But when I researched the two, the Nu-Clear has a limited range of media compared to the OC.

And thank YOU Raul, but as like the example you set yourself, we all do our part!

I never really realized that about the Nu-Clears. I'm still thinking real hard about replacing my backup filter - the Eheim Pro II - with another Ocean Clear. But I've been wondering if I should make the 2nd one a Nu-Clear instead. Just to try it...

But if you have any thought about why I should, or should not, do that... I'm all ears.

Thanks!

[scolley]

Originally Posted by Defchilde

..would you have a stand custom-built from the start or stay within the 18” confines? I currently have a 120g which is 18” and find it limiting, and would rather have gone with a 24” tank.

I'm THRILLED with my 24" tank, and would not do it ANY differently. That extra 6" makes a BIG difference! Frankly I haven't made good use of that space yet. But when I slapped what I will loosely call my "aquascape" up, it was super easy with this extra room. I was in wicked hurry, and the extra 6" made a big difference. What I did in minutes would have taken hours and hours and hours in an 18" tank. And the fish seem to like it too!

And needless to say, it looks great in person.

So if I had it all to do over, I'd get the same size. But it would have been nice to know there were so few stands available. That missing piece of information added 6-8 weeks on the time I thought it was going to take to but this thing together.

Originally Posted by Defchilde

I was under the impression that Pentair heater modules and Ocean Clear filers all have ¾” connectors. If you used 1” tubing, would it not cause a bottleneck at these points, reducing the flow to what would pass through? I must admit that fluid dynamics was not my best subject in college.

I'm no Mechanical Engineer either. But apparently a short constriction makes only a negligible difference if flow or pressure. I would not have guessed that, but it's true. Go to Reef Central and play around with their PVC pressure/flow rate tool and you'll see what I mean. Or Goggle for a copy of the PVC pressure spreadsheet that drives it. Or pm me for a copy that I customized for my purposed (I can't help at the moment though - am traveling).

Either way, that spreadsheet shows it matters much less than you think. And it's pretty accurate too. It predicted the flow/pressure of my overly complex system within about 15%. Not perfect, but good enough. And I'm sure it would work even better for a less complex set up.

[Defchilde]

Originally Posted by scolley

That sounds really exciting! But honestly, I don't have a clue what you are talking about! What's an FX5? And where's the chip? Really.

Fluval FX5 External Filter
Recently placed on the market, seems like a nice product.

I like the concept of the backwash feature on the Ocean Clear.

[original kuhli]

Scolley, there's a chip in the FX5 canister that does a few things:

1. Runs a burping procedure at startup to rid the system of any air in the canister. The pump is at the bottom of the FX5 which is I believe what causes this need.

2. Burps the filter every 24 hours to remove any airspace that's built up. I presume this keeps the filter quieter as well.

3. In theory (I've no idea how) the chip monitors load vs flow and doesn't expend excess energy on pushing water through the media faster than is possible given the restriction that increases as the filter loads.

4. The impeller is uni-directional and has a curved blade design, this means it has to run one direction (I gather the others can turn either way), probably with something in item 3 above the chip figures out if the impeller is turning the right way and can correct itself.

That's the story anyway...the common thought it that the filter doesn't like having things plumbed inline but there's far more people with success than the one or two problems I've seen documented.