scolley's 75g Big Clear Kahuna (56K warning)

[PJAN]

I agree with Sean that ther is little biomass.
That's the point.
Understanding fertilization is very complex.

1) High light tanks - like yours- are reacting different than low light tanks.
To be short on this one : The need for higher NO3 and PO4 concentrations is a direct result of the high light + CO2. You can say the plants need a sort of overpressure of these macro's during the high light period. The growing speed is at maximum and the internal buffer of the plants will only last for an hour or so. After that point the macro's in the water will be the supplier.
That's the reason why higher concentrations work out better in high-light tanks.
It's a bit strange that a high light tank doesn't do well with say 3 mg NO3, isn't it?
After all, there is NO3 available !
The overpressure makes it easy for a plant to get enough NO3 at the peak.

2) The micro's are very necessary of course. The whole chain ( macro's and micro's) has to be complete for optimal assimilation.
But, there is not a need for an overpressure of the micro's. They are taken active by the plant : they have certain receptors for uptake.

Too much miicro's can lead to algea. Especially in non-mature tanks. The bacterial stability is not optimal and the plants are just shooting roots and a few small leaves.

In my opinion it's better to calculate the biomass and dose according to it.
If you put all your plants in one place... how much space will they take?
Perhaps 1/4 of the space?
So we need to dose micro's for these plants and 1/3 should be ok to start with during the beginnig ( say 4 - 6 weeks ).

3) the peak with the lights has several advantages.

2 lamps ( 108 Watt ) = low light
This will allow the plants to grow steady and easy. In fact under these low lights the plants can do with lower NO3/PO4 because everything is easy running.

4 lamps ( 208 Watt) or more lamps = high light.
Now the plants need to have more NO3/PO4 etc and running low on there internal buffer. The overpressure of NO3/PO4 helps them out.

This high light period for 3 -4 hours is enough to keep the plants down and give them enough impulse to grow nicely with red leaves ( if they can)

A big advantage is that you can play with the growing speed of the plants by adjusting the totall high light hours. 3 hours is normal and 6 hours high light means turbo-boost. But also more worries if there are enough macro's available.

A smaller peak ( say 3 hours) will not punish you hard when you're forgot to dose macro's or running too low for some reason. It forgives you to a certain point.
Isn't that nice?

Gr.PJAN

[scolley]

Wow!

PJAN - I love the pressure concept. I haven't a clue as to what that really means biochemically, but it is easy to understand!

What a great explanation. That's d*mn near sticky worthy IMO.

So, either you are a world-class BS artist, or there is something to what you are saying. I'll follow your and Sean's advise... The lights are down to 3hx108w then 3hx216w then 3hx108w, and tomorrow I'll be doing a water change with massively reduced micros after that.

Thanks!

Oh yeah.. everything is pearling like no tomorrow (in high light) but I also had to do my first scraping of spot algae off the glass today too.

[Georgiadawgger]

Interesting PJAN...I've never heard of anything remotely like that before. Of course I'm only a botanist/ecologist...not a plant physiologist or met/mol expert. Is this an idea you came up with or is there a study on it?

You are right though about the biomass part...but give that tank some time to fill out and then start your mega dosing routine

[cprroy73]

Scolley, I am just wondering what levels of ferts are you trying to keep.

When I started up my tank I ran 10 and 1 at first for a few weeks then once the plants really showed established growth I upped it to 15-20 and 1.5-2 and micros from day one but only half what I now dose. I dose 10mil flourish now every other day. My tank is 58gal.

Are you still going to use the complete flourish line?

[scolley]

At the moment I'm doing a weekly water change, testing post water change, and dosing up to target levels. I'm not dosing more often as the uptake rate has been somewhat slow.

My targets are N - 12 to 14, P 1.2 to 1.4, and K 20 to 25. That is all Seachem liquids except for the prodigious amount of N and P that comes in with the tap water. On top of that I had been dosing 2X the manufacturers directed dose for TMG and Flourish Iron. And I've been using about 1/x the recommended does of Flourish Excel, both as an algaecide, and due to some peoples belief that it really help the HC I've got a lot of. And my CO2 stays between 28 and 38 ppm.

Yesterday, with both the massive pearling and newly arrived algae, I tested N & P, and while the P had only moved down to 1.0 or so, the N was 6, maybe 7. That was after 4 and 1/2 days. So there is some uptake.

I'm leaving for 8 days tomorrow, so I think I'll bump the N, P targets up a hair, and as per recommendations here, hit the water change volume with 1/2 doses on the micros.

And BTW - I will switch to dry ferts soon enough. Ripping through too much liquid to keep this up long. But I'm going to wait until the tank is thriving, using ferts I understand well first. Then I'll switch.

[PJAN]

Originally Posted by Georgiadawgger

Interesting PJAN...I've never heard of anything remotely like that before. Of course I'm only a botanist/ecologist...not a plant physiologist or met/mol expert. Is this an idea you came up with or is there a study on it?

You are right though about the biomass part...but give that tank some time to fill out and then start your mega dosing routine

I am a plant physiologist. Studied 6 years for it...

Nutrition uptake by aquatic plants is much more comlex than everybody thought 10 years ago. It's an active and selective process. And this process fluctuates under different circumstances ( e.g. high light and/or high CO2).
CO2 has also an optimum : around 30 mg/l. Also an overprussure thing.
(some stuff can be found on the internet about it)
I did my own investigations on aquatic plant growth. Not published. But with scientific results.

Gr. PJAN

[Georgiadawgger]

Originally Posted by PJAN

I am a plant physiologist. Studied 6 years for it...

Nutrition uptake by aquatic plants is much more comlex than everybody thought 10 years ago. It's an active and selective process. And this process fluctuates under different circumstances ( e.g. high light and/or high CO2).
CO2 has also an optimum : around 30 mg/l. Also an overprussure thing.
(some stuff can be found on the internet about it)
I did my own investigations on aquatic plant growth. Not published. But with scientific results.

Gr. PJAN

Nice!! You need to get them into a journal...if you want me to review if for you I can help you out.

I stayed away from physiology...I was much more interested in conbio, population ecology, community ecology, plant/animal interactions, etc. Although there was a chapter of my dissertation that needed someone with electron microscopy experience....(unfinished business for a future grad student). The only plant physiology experience I have is with my research (heavy metal hyperaccumultion of nickel, zinc, cadmium, etc and translocation into shoots, chelation, etc...)

[scolley]

OMG! PJAN coming out about why he seems to know so much! With Georgiadawgger following close behind! I had been paying close attention to these guys. Now I've got to pay real close attention.

And you saw it here first folks!

[scolley]

Here are a few clickable 2-week progress pics...








I suppose the only things worth commenting on are:

1) I've got snails. But I don't want to move my loaches over yet. I'd rather give the HC a bit more time to root well.

2) On the HC topic, all along the border between the substrates is HC. Or at least it's supposed to be. Clearly little bits of riccia got stuck in all of it, and now I've got a riccia border! The HC is taking hold and growing, but the riccia is growing LOTS faster. And pulling out the riccia rips out the HC. So I suppose I've got an HC/Riccia combo border in the making. Good thing riccia is indigenous!

3) I had a lot more lily pads in the top left, but I injured them in the water change and had to cut them off. I'll have to learn how to accommodate that in the future.

4) I've got algae on the sand and the glass. But as per recommendations, I've changed my lighting schedule, and I'll be backing down on the micros.

But even with all that - Man! Am I ever loving this!!!

[andyg]

Wow! Looking fantastic.
Amazing how you can get that block of water to stay around your plants.
The clearness of that glass will never stop to amaze me.

[yznj99]

Everything looks so clean! Can't believe the tank just started!

[kzr750r1]

This is another reason to read your thread Scolley.
Lot's of great advice that confirms some personal observation.

Between you and Marc it confirms I have to get more light!

Not dosing so heavy and getting better results with only 108w Tek over a 55g.

Time to go price another Tek fixture this time with four 54w bulbs and use this on for an orchid bed or somthing.

Thanks for the explanation of your statements PJAN.

[PJAN]

Looking good Steve.

De Ludwiga has already red colored leaves halfway the tank, means enough light.
The algea on the glass/sand ( and in future : on the wood.... ) are normal at this early stage.
The only thing you have to worry about is growing healthy plants and learn to use your powerfull lights.
Also don't prune plants for the next 4 weeks, let it grow. Even if it becomes a dense bush.
Half the dose of micro is ok for now. Till the tank has fully grown - more biomass - it's enough. Maybe in about 3 weeks you can up the micro's.

Gr. PJAN

[Buck]

Nice growth Steve... as it grows in, the ferns presence are growing on me in there as well...LOL
This is making me want to put my additional lights back on my tank ! You are gonna have fun keeping up with the ludwigia in there, that stuff grows like gangbusters dont it ?

[m.lemay]

Wow steve, great growth. The hairgrass is filling in quite quickly.

The right side of the tank looks awesome, but somethings missing on the left side. I'm gonna have to think about it for awhile before I can put my finger on it.

On the ricccia stuck in HC matter. You might have to pull it out and do triage.

The bunch you gave me was the same way. I took out a cookie sheet put some water in the bottom of it. I put on my sharpest pair of glasses. I got some tweezers and a bright light and proceeded to seperate it all. It took me about an hour. Just make sure you got lots of time with no distractions. It was actually a Zen moment for me.

Marcel