Amazonia II cloudyness after several months

[onica7]

Originally Posted by jasa73

I'm confused - and im probably jumping in to defend AS2 =-) cause i love the stuff. But if you're not disturbing your substrate, do a WC and get clearer water, are we suggesting that the substrate is spontaneously breaking down and clouding the water again?

I'm in the process of rescaping with ASII soil and have been disturbing my substrate several times a week as new plants come in and my water clears right up after a bit. I even went so far as to add more soil by scooping cupfuls of soil and lowering it into the water to build up the slope of my tank - certainly not the most efficient or clean way of adding soil!

What color is the cloudiness of your water?

It's kind of like how your tank looks when you first fill it, and light is bouncing off the silt/air bubbles in the water.. as if there are tiny bits of silt suspend in the water. It's not like the dark brown mud i have seen when people first fill there tanks, but it has never gotten fully clear.

Again, this is my first time working with the stuff, so I am not sure this is normal or not. But it does seem excessive to me in comparison to the results I see others getting.

I was not expecting the break down of the AS I saw when running it under water, and that is what prompted me to post, to see if others could confirm the same. If some has a small handful they could test, I'd still be interested to hear what happens.

Thanks!

[ColeMan]

I've spoken with Jeff on several occasions and he did not mention any problems with amazonia II, but then again I didn't really feel the need to ask him if one of his products was "ok." Instead I examined my own particular goals for the tank, tested water parameters and made what I would consider an educated purchase based on the data I had available to me. When comparing the two substrates on the ADG website, I determined that AS II would work the best for me, based on the verbiage very clearly contained on the ADG website. I'm not angry, really; and to be quite honest, I have full confidence that I will have few problems with my amazonia II...at least not any more than should be expected...I'm all prepared with carbon, zeolite, and filter floss. I've got a UV sterilizer I can borrow from a friend and a DE filter bookmarked in case I need it...I try to speak with all of the vendors I order from on the phone, even if I place my order online. To date I have neglected to do so on only one occasion (with Orlando at Green Leaf, but that's different). So, I wholeheartedly agree with your advice. If I were Jeff I wouldn't carry it, but that may not be possible as per ADA product distribution agreement stuff?...

I sent Jeff an e-mail last week asking him if he had any last minute advice for cycling with amazonia II...He told me to call him because the amount of info he wished to relay wouldn't fit in the e-mail - I'm sure with his advice, Tom's advice and that of my fellow aquarists here, things will work out very well.

@ LeftC - Tom just replied to a post of mine on another forum about AS and said the same thing about NH4 amounts varying from bag to bag...I guess it's to be expected with a "natural" product...He also noted that similar issues can also be seen in his tank that he dry started.

[Left C]

I hope II works out for you and please keep us informed.

[ColeMan]

So I just talked to Jeff Senske about cycling with Amazonia II; I asked him if he had any suggestions or words of wisdom. For the most part, it's exactly what you'd expect: large water changes from the git go. But, he did say a few things that may be useful to others (especially new AS users) cycling with Amazonia:

1)The initial NH4 spike in any new tank has potentially very positive benefits for plants, as another NH4 spike this intense will, hopefully, never again occur in an established tank. Granted this isn't really new information (we all know plants use NH4) but it does suggest that using things like zeolite in your canister during cycling, though not necessarily detrimental, is at the very least unnecessary.

2)When using an established filter, growth seems to level off much quicker; there's no explosive initial growth like what is often experienced with amazonia with an immature filter.

3)It's okay to dose potassium from the onset, but perhaps around the 2 week mark one can start lightly dosing other water column ferts; some plants may get deficient, but better than encouraging an algae bloom (i know this is debatable, but...)

I really appreciate Jeff taking the time to talk with me, and so I figured I'd pass along the information (regardless of how well-known it may be). And, for what it's worth, although Jeff did endorse the amazonia over the II, he didn't say that there was anything inherently wrong with the new line; it was, he explained, created to combat some of the problems people were having with the original amazonia (eg. cloudiness), though its efficacy at doing such is questionable.

Hope this information is useful to someone...

[Jerry23]

your info is great, so hold off from dosing iron, Potassium, floursish and trace for like 2 weeks.

[ColeMan]

from what I understand from my conversation with Jeff, you can dose potassium from the start with no problem but you should wait for the others until your tank begins to stabilize; at this point you should begin dosing slowly (i.e. under-dose) until you find an optimum level for plant growth. Your plants may show some deficiency while you work things out as far as your dosing is concerned, but will flourish afterwards. I wonder if this would change if you were dosing EI; after all Jeff does use ADA products (I'm assuming)...hmm...I'm going to think about this one...anyone else have any ideas?

[macclellan]

I got some of the bad AS II...after a month of disintegrating, it became the most expensive houseplant fertilizer I've ever used by a long shot.

[plantbrain]

Originally Posted by ColeMan

1)The initial NH4 spike in any new tank has potentially very positive benefits for plants, as another NH4 spike this intense will, hopefully, never again occur in an established tank. Granted this isn't really new information (we all know plants use NH4) but it does suggest that using things like zeolite in your canister during cycling, though not necessarily detrimental, is at the very least unnecessary.

Let me pick this apart for you so you do not run away with the wrong conclusions.

Why might the tank do better faster with an established filter?
NH4=> NO3

Nitrogen is nitrogen.
Do not kid yourself with about it being "preferred" and that's why you see initial growth. As long as you have N, you are fine, the plants will make do with what they have and NH4 at high levels will burn and inhibit plants, some are more sensitive than pothers as well, some prefer NO3, some NH4, but all prefer a balance of both. It's not an either or, black and white thing, never was, but some reason, many seem to get caught in that trap.

Nitrogen is pretty much nitrogen, as long as there's enough available, the plants will grow. If you do not add any N to a plain silica sand sediment, and you have a sediment that has N, obviously you will have more growth.

Many folks do not add any ferts with plain sand or with ADA AS the first few weeks. So obviously the tank with more total nutrients, regardless of the transition state/form, will have more growth vs a limited situation with no source of N.

I've added NO3 and then added only NH4(flourite sediment, no source of N).
I saw better results with NO3 personally with 20 species of plants, Erios Tonia, hairgrass etc..... I added .5 ppm NH4 as NH4Cl vs 3ppm of NO3 as KNO3. K+ was about 20-30ppm, so was independent. Cl- at such small levels is assume to have no effect. I could not really see any differences, but there was less algae with the NO3. Others have tried this in the past, no effect they could see of show either.

2)When using an established filter, growth seems to level off much quicker; there's no explosive initial growth like what is often experienced with amazonia with an immature filter.

I've seen the opposite.
And with good reason, at 6 ppm of NH4, the ADA AS burns some plants(some responded very well however, Stargrass for example). So unless you do more frequent massive water changes, they will suffer. It's only since the leaching has stopped, I've seen growth return to normal. Some batches are okay, but some have really been poor with respect to initial growth. This tank had a packed filter with Zeolite, Purigen, Carbon, mulm, huge filter relative to tank size etc , and the tank was pre soaked 2 weeks prior to established some foreground plant roots, virtually none of them had growth and most had some melt back. 2x a week 70% water changes.
5 weeks later, the tank leveled out.

I could have resolved things by doing daily or 3-4x a week 70-90% water changes. But I wondered if 2x a week at this rate would take care of things.
It did not.

3)It's okay to dose potassium from the onset, but perhaps around the 2 week mark one can start lightly dosing other water column ferts; some plants may get deficient, but better than encouraging an algae bloom (i know this is debatable, but...)

This algae business is entirely rubbish. K+, Ca, Mg etc is fine. Few seem to point finger there. I've set up several tanks where I added full EI from day one and had little issue, others, I did nothing but water changes: algae, green water, poor plant growth.

So based on that, it would seem if you followed your logic that opposite is true.

However it's not this simple thing, we all have assumed ADA AS is consistent and stable and has no variation batch to batch.

Well it does.

Why would adding ferts(KNO3, KH2PO4, Fe/traces) etc from day one if you add a mature filter not cause algae but adding a non mature filter would using ADA AS?

Is it that the excess ferts led to the algae of rather, the NH4 from the ADA AS?

Try inducing algae with NO3 sometime, see if you can do it.
Then repeat with NH4.

New tanks also often have CO2 related issues, so such factors must be controlled for and be independent, otherwise you cannot conclude a thing from the results.

At two weeks in, I had all sorts of issues, it would not had matter then or at the start when they where added.

I really appreciate Jeff taking the time to talk with me, and so I figured I'd pass along the information (regardless of how well-known it may be). And, for what it's worth, although Jeff did endorse the amazonia over the II, he didn't say that there was anything inherently wrong with the new line; it was, he explained, created to combat some of the problems people were having with the original amazonia (eg. cloudiness), though its efficacy at doing such is questionable.

Hope this information is useful to someone...

I like and recommend ADA AS, however, it does require a lot of work in some cases. Very large frequent water changes in general are required to start the tank.

Some might be luckier there than other folks.
New tanks often get algae and have issues until the plants establish.
Water column ferts such as NO3, PO4, Traces, K/Ca/Mg etc do not induce algae. Adding NH4 + high light + CO2 to a new tank will induce algae, ask any of the folks that get GW due to fishless cycling. You can measure the rate of NH4 leaching in the water column in a new tank due to no bacterial colonization with ADA AS.

So if you remove the NH4 part(or have a bacterial colony able to convert it to NO3 rapidly as well as having leaching rates decline over time), then there's no algae if you dose right away, which large frequent water changes remove(same reason why breeders do large WC's). Even the zeolite I packed in there could not put a dent in the NH4 nor the mulm. Other tanks this worked fine.

Much like the (past)assumption that all cheapo test kits are accurate, after running a few reps, suddenly it's pretty obvious there's a lot of variation.

You might not need to do 3-4 x a week large water changes in some cases. Knowing precisely how much WC's to do to keep the NH4 from getting too high and causing algae/melting plants etc, vs running too low and not having enough nutrients for faster plant growth is tough call, but you can measure the ranges with precise NH4 test methods.

So you will see poor growth in some cases, algae and poor growth in others, and then good growth with in between ranges. Unless you test and monitor NH4, you are not going to know.
Adding multiple variables like NO3/PO4, poor plant health/nutrient status for the new plants you are adding and not considering the effects of NH4/high light etc, it going to lead to errors. I do think there is some interaction once algae starts/is induced with PO4/NO3 at high levels and if the plants are not properly cared for/growing well. But these do not induce algae to begin with, so if you address that, then adding them should not be an issue.


Regards,
Tom Barr

[ColeMan]

Thanks for the clarification(s), Tom. Seems there's a lot to consider when cycling a tank with aquasoil...

[not_sponsored]

I'm have the same problem in my 5g, I'll do a 50% water change and the water will look a bit clearer for about 2 minutes, then start to cloud up again.

[Luichenwai]

Just a heads up. Found this on another forum. It has worked for others as well. You might want to give it a try.

Day 0 - add in Adasoil and water
Day 1 - change near 100% water
Day 1.5 - change near 100% water
Day 2 - change near 100% water
Day 2.5 - change near 100% water
Day 2.5 - add in water that was used to wash a matured filter wool and sponge
Day 4 - start to see ammonia goes down and nitrate raising
Day 6 - ammonia at 0.25ppm and nitrate 20ppm did a water near 100% water change, parameter just after WC: ammonia is very near 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate is less than 5ppm
Day 7 - ammonia is very very close to 0, I introduce my CRS.
Day 8 - ammonia is 0.
Day 11- ammonia is 0, nitrate is 5ppm.

[ColeMan]

yeah, the shrimpnow.com method...seems to work for some; I'm going to model my own cycling after this method to some degree.

[Akira]

Originally Posted by Luichenwai

Just a heads up. Found this on another forum. It has worked for others as well. You might want to give it a try.

Day 0 - add in Adasoil and water
Day 1 - change near 100% water
Day 1.5 - change near 100% water
Day 2 - change near 100% water
Day 2.5 - change near 100% water
Day 2.5 - add in water that was used to wash a matured filter wool and sponge
Day 4 - start to see ammonia goes down and nitrate raising
Day 6 - ammonia at 0.25ppm and nitrate 20ppm did a water near 100% water change, parameter just after WC: ammonia is very near 0, nitrite 0 and nitrate is less than 5ppm
Day 7 - ammonia is very very close to 0, I introduce my CRS.
Day 8 - ammonia is 0.
Day 11- ammonia is 0, nitrate is 5ppm.

can anyone validate this method? i have a rather large bag on its way of amazonia and power sand and am not looking forward to a month log wait before i can put my little guys back in their home..

[PRESTON4479]

Originally Posted by Akira

can anyone validate this method? i have a rather large bag on its way of amazonia and power sand and am not looking forward to a month log wait before i can put my little guys back in their home..

I'm wandering the same thing. I'm preparing to redo my 55g substrate with aquasoil and really wanted to keep my fish. Will I have to set up another tank just to keep the fish in? Is this the best way to cycle with aquasoil?

[dhavoc]

Preston4479, it varies between bags as far as the ammonia spike goes. you will need to setup another container anyway. in the method above, there are NO inverts or fish in the tank during cycling, only plants and filter bacteria. you can just setup a couple of those rubber maid storage containers with some of your existing gravel and plants with filters and hold them that way till the tank is ready. unfortunately, with AS you just have to be patient. i havent had a tank take less than 14 days to cycle, and i leave most at least a month before adding any fish or shrimps. plants i add from day one. i found that by letting a good sized bunch of nutrient hogs like foxtail, and salvinia float helps keep most of algae at bay as well. at least till your plants can establish themselves and outcompete the algae for nutrients.