Substrates that you would NOT use.

[plantbrain]

I just rinse the flourite 3x and add, then slowly fill the tank.
This was dfiscussed years and years ago.

Don't like the color? Onyx sand is my personal preference.

I like light colorred gravels but no one makes any plant specific.

Regards,
Tom Barr

[Wasserpest]

I am planning a new tank... a 20 gallon one. I would like to try for a richer substrate, and a leaner water column.

For substrate layering I am thinking (from the bottom up):

- a bunch of jobes sticks evenly distributed on the bottom glass

- kitty litter (the non-clumping, not disintegrating kind that's sitting in a bag in my garage) about 1/2 in in front to about 1.5 in towards one corner

- a load of mulm from established tanks to get the thing biologically active

- pricematched flourite (80% of one bag) covering the litter stuff

- 20% of the flourite washed as a cover to prevent a mess in the water column

Any thoughts, critisism, discouragement?

[sarahbobarah]

I'm wary of the cat litter......

And which Jobe sticks do you intend to use?

[Wasserpest]

I should have added that with the type of KL that I have I already had some good successful tanks made. No mushy stuff. Think Profile, with a less awful color

Jobes probably the Ferns and Palms flavor, NPK 16-2-5 or so iirc.

[AaronT]

The kitty liter doesn't scare me nearly as much as the thought of layering the bottom with jobes sticks. The moment you pull up some plants you're going to have an algae bloom like crazy when those highly concentrated ferts hit the water column.

It sounds like you're bent on not spending a lot of cash so why not try a soil tank? There is a way to treat soil so that there are no organics left in it when it is added. Then all you are left with is a mineralized soil with micros and macros to last a lifetime.

I have a friend helping me to do this now. You need Muriate of Potash (potassium), Dolomite, Clay, and a Bag and el cheapo topsoil (less likely to have fertilizers). Put the soil in a container and fill it with water. Swish the soil around a good bit to get the water distributed. Let it sit a few days and change the water and swish it around again. After another few days empty the water out and let the soil dry out. Repeat this treatment for a few weeks or until the water no longer smells. The bacteria will have mineralized all the organics in the soil by now.

Now sprinkle a handful of the Potash and Dolomite on the very bottom of the tank. Not a lot of either is needed at all. In a separate container take some clay and mix it with water to emulsify it. Then take some of the emulsified clay and mix it with the mineralized soil (this adds iron). Now add about a 1" layer of soil to the tank and cover it with whatever gravel you like. That should give you a substrate rich enough to never worry about potassium or any micros.

This is all to the best of my recollection. Perhaps one day my friend will create a more indepth article for us all. It's a bit of effort to make, but like you said it's worth it if it lasts and lasts.

[Wasserpest]

Sounds like a good recipe. I know Sean is a big supporter of soil substrates too, and I have used them a long time ago with good results.

But I am not going to do that. I don't trust el cheapo topsoil with or without fertilizer. And a few weeks of treatment is quite some effort. Pouring in the clay out of a bag is much easier.

The jobes sticks (not a layer of them, just a couple strategically distributed) are on the bottom so that I don't pull them up. If I do happen to end up with plants that need to be pulled out and have a lot of roots I might just end up cutting them.

I use jobes right now in my tanks, and often end up pulling them out (roots seem to like them ) but never had algae problems because of them. Maybe they were already spent. I usually just push them back into the substrate.

[aquaverde]

That's really similar to what Sean does, or did, with his soil recipe. He was adding Ironite to the clay, but we all pretty much have shied away from that after finding out about all the heavy metal contamination in Ironite. Don't know if anyone ever found a decent substitute. I substituted CSM+B on one try. The only problem I had with the clay is documented above.

I did a pair of 10g tanks with the following recipe-
6 Jobes sticks each on the bottom glass
on that, a half inch layer of peat and leonardite
on that, an inch of Profile
on that, a cap of quartz gravel

I have some pics of it somewhere. I'll try to remember to review them to confirm my memory on it. If I forgot anything or got it wrong, I'll edit this post. The only problem I had with it was in one tank where I capped the peat too sloppily, and got brown water for a good while. Interestingly, my soil and peat tanks had less algae problems than my non-soil tanks. Have no idea why, though.

Continuing on, last week I dug the substrate out of my 20 because I don't like the larger grain of the gravel and Flourite that sits on the top. I left the bottom part, which is soil, and dumped in a bag of Gray Coast calcite. This is basically Onyx sand, but cheaper!!! I did zero rinsing. I planted the tank after putting in about 4 inches of water, then drained the tank and refilled. There was initial clouding, but not very bad, and I was careful when filling. The next day it was crystal clear. I don't let the Seachem substrates bother me. After a short while, the fines are on the bottom anyway. Clay is the only clouding substrate that I haven't been able to master with technique.

[aquaverde]

Originally Posted by Wasserpest

Sounds like a good recipe. I know Sean is a big supporter of soil substrates too, and I have used them a long time ago with good results.

But I am not going to do that. I don't trust el cheapo topsoil with or without fertilizer. And a few weeks of treatment is quite some effort. Pouring in the clay out of a bag is much easier.

I'm lucky enough that I can dig dirt out of my yard and dump it in the tank. No muss, no fuss. I do avoid the kitty and squirrel poo, though. We don't have a dog.

The jobes sticks (not a layer of them, just a couple strategically distributed) are on the bottom so that I don't pull them up. If I do happen to end up with plants that need to be pulled out and have a lot of roots I might just end up cutting them.

I use jobes right now in my tanks, and often end up pulling them out (roots seem to like them ) but never had algae problems because of them. Maybe they were already spent. I usually just push them back into the substrate.

That's my experience as well. They are pretty nasty looking when disinterred, but I don't leave them out for any time, and it's usually just before wc time anyway.

[AaronT]

It's more than just "similar" to Sean's recipe , although I did forget one thing. He now adds chick grit to the soil to give it bulk and help it hold it's shape..i.e. not flatten out over time.

[aquaverde]

Details, details. It never registered in my mind you were in MD.

Well, that explains things. Sean posted some time back about the kind of soil that was good for this application. Imagine my surprise when I realized he was describing the kind of soil I have in my yard. It's a good thing it works well in aquaria because it doesn't do such a hot job growing grass.

[AaronT]

Yeah, we have the same problem at our house. Our soil is chock full of clay. I don't even plan on adding any to my mixture when I try it out soon. I'd say your cloudy tank woes were due to an excess of the clay.

[bavarian3]

Dont buy play sand from home depot. it is messy, dirty, clouds water bad and is too fine damaging filters.

[sarahbobarah]

think it depends on which home depot, as they get sand from their local area. I used play sand in some of my tanks, and it worked out fine.

Re the Jobes sticks - I think they make new ones specifically for aquatic use, but it's like an arm and a leg compared to the palm ferts. I've not yet used the palm ferts but would be interested to know if they actually help.

[Betowess]

Originally Posted by Talonstorm

OK, I will go out on a limb here and say that I will never use flourite again. There are several reasons why (this is entirely my own experience and opinion and feel free to disagree). First, it was horrible to rinse, it took literally hours and I finally gave up figuring I would never be able to rinse it to my satisfaction. The first 5 washes produced something the consistancy of thin clay.
Tina

I washed my flourite a long while. I'm sure I lost some fines, but I have no clouding problem at all, so it can be done... I used a metal collander/strainer in a 5 gallon bucket with a garden hose. It took a long, long time. I also hate the color, fwiw. I like the black look of spendy eco. bob

[chris Ryan]

hi, im about too set up a 240 litre tank im going to be using undersoil substrate heating,i have used dennerle deponit in the past but was not that impressed (it kept working its way too the top and just looked a bit of a mess) what do you guys think?? cheers,chris