senagalensis and gracillis (growth problems)
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Old 07-21-2004, 08:27 PM   #1
fedge
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senagalensis and gracillis (growth problems)


I have been having problems or apparent problems with these plants....

The plants will grow strong for a week or so.. but then the leaves shrivel on the gracillis and twist up and have black holes or spots develop on the senagalensis (lower leaves black dots a-plenty, and they tend to yellow a bit.. not red. The top leaves red out big time. ALSO.. I think the root system is not developed a lot. I hate to dig them up to find out, stems are delicate and snap off easily!

I also have ludwigia repens in the same tank and they look like pointsettias..if that helps.

I need some advice on how these plants tend to behave in other peoples tanks and water...

MY WATER (approximately.. I give ranges cause things can change)
in a 20L with 55watt of 9325K GE PC light.
Nh4---0
NO2---0
No3---5 to 10 (usually 10, I dose Kno3 to keep it 10 evey 4 days or 3days or as needed)
Po4--- from .5 to 1.0 (sometimes lower ...I dose this off and on now.. evey four days.. as needed to keep in this range)
Ph ~ 7.0 to 7.2 (DIY CO2.. change it out evey 7 to 10 days when bubble rate drops off)
Kh ~ 10 to 13 deg (depends on water that is changed)
GH ~ 11 to 16 deg (diddo)
Co2 ~ 20-30 ppm(DIY CO2..need I say more)
Fe (can't ever detect ANY..used to before tank balanced)

I think that is about good...

So I do dose Kno3 evey 3 to 4 days.. or when I test ..and it is low.. (no3 never below 5 ppm). I dose enema every 3 to four days.. it usally needs it... about 25 to 45units, depending on the needs (it is a 1ml seringe that is devided into 50 units). I dose 5 ml of K from seachem... every week... I think that is enough. I add a small pinch (about 1/64 tsp) of table salt for the shrimp and fish (iodine... they seem to be happier with it in the tank) every two weeks or so. I also add PMDD about 2ml every week in one day.. not daily. I am scared to dose this TOO much.. I JUST got the tank balanced and the only algae left is a little hair(staghorn looking stuff).. that doesnt attach to anything and pulls right out of the tank easily(about 5 inches in length and I remove it once a week.. not much at all now... tank is great looking now)

One fert calc said that the magnesium should be 5 o 10 ppm.. but the pmdd won't dose that high.. should i dose this seperately...???

my pmdd mix is 500ml (tad stronger than normal)
1.5 tb of plantex w/ boron
1 tsp KN03(I dose these seperate)
1 tsp PO4(I dose these seperate)
3 tb of MgSo4 + 7H20


the substrate is 10llbs of gravel and 15llbs of seachems flourite. There are a ton of platy babies.. two hiding otociniclus and maybe some shrimp..(i not sure anymore.. havent seen them in weeks).
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Old 07-21-2004, 08:34 PM   #2
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The table salt I add is very minimal.. I must add.. it would be like adding a spec of it to a glass of water... So I tend to not think that it is a factor.. there is more sodium naturally in our water I would think. I add it only once a month or so... not often at all. It is just a small pinch (what don't spill between my fingers) to each tank. I Add the same amount to my 5 gallon nano and none of the plants suffer in that tank whatsoever.
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Old 07-22-2004, 05:12 PM   #3
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last night I added a heathly dose of PMDD mix (approximately 4ml to 5ml).. along with a 5ml shot of K. The plants started to pear a little (my coffeeolia). today the senegallicious looks a little better.. hard to tell though. I think they were starved for iron and other micro nutes...
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Old 07-22-2004, 08:59 PM   #4
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I would suggest using a comprehensive micronutrient like seachem flourish. In my tank my gracillis (looks a lot like senagalensis) stand seems to perk up with a little extra iron (seachem fe). I dose both of these products daily (3ml each in my 72g). On the subject of root systems: I have found that even the most massive stem of gracilis will have a very small root system. I pull them out of my tank once a month and the roots are minimal, even on a very robust stem about the size of my pinky finger and 18in tall. One other question, do you have them planted in a bunch or in single stems?
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Old 07-23-2004, 12:30 AM   #5
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There are about four stems of them.. each individual.. (some I cut off cause it reached the top of the tank... and the result was a stump that decided to branch off.. However, another one that was a single stem suddenly grew a branch...weird.. You know I am starting to think that the gracillis is not what I got.. you say that they are similar.. but I would say that what I think is gracillis(what the plant guy said was).. looks more like stargrass and senegallisis mixed.. my gracillis is very bushy and desne.. the other plant will not grow that way....but PLANTGEEK>COM don't have the best photo's to id.. always.

The leaves were black and not heathly then.(senegallis)...
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Old 07-23-2004, 01:50 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fedge
There are about four stems of them.. each individual.. (some I cut off cause it reached the top of the tank... and the result was a stump that decided to branch off.. However, another one that was a single stem suddenly grew a branch...weird..
You will be better off topping the plants (re: cutting around halfway) and discarding the rooted bottom end, while replanting the top. This will ensure a more healthy plant and will allow it to continue growing unaffected. According to Kasselmanns book senegalensis is described as having the leaf shape as "more or less strongly recurved downwards so that the leaf surface is arched." Basically this means that the leaves are more prone to a downward arched position rather than a upright stretched to the light sort of orientation (in the case of gracilis). In any event these two plants are nearly the same. They both require the same high intensity light as well as a nutritious substrate and water column. IMO both respond very well to co2 levels of 25-35ppm. Are you sure of your current co2 levels with your diy setup? Good luck.....
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Old 07-23-2004, 02:45 AM   #7
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I believe that Ammanaia species, like Nessea species and E. stellata, tend to be "fickle" plants. Meaning that although you may provide the plants what appears to be the optimal growing conditions, the plants may fizzle out or stunt. Some of the best growers I know have constant trouble with the aforementioned plants due to no fault or oversight of their own.

I have seen Nessea and Ammannia sp. grown in horrible conditions. No fertilizers, ok lighting and less than optimal CO2 levels. The plants are small, naturally, but they survive. I have seen Nessea and Ammannia species fail in optimal conditions, great CO2, lighting, and a strict fertlizing regime.

I just don't beleive there is an easy answer as to how to grow those plants. I am not sure it is a case of add this or cut back on that. I am not advocating that you throw up your hands and yank the plants out. I am advocating that you take it easy on yourself and realize that these are tough plants! Patience is the key!

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Old 07-23-2004, 08:16 PM   #8
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fairly sure.. but recently the dumb-ass snails have been cleaning the co2 ladder a lot. they are not letting it run the way that it should. But I am confident that the ppm is at least 20ppm.
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Old 07-31-2004, 01:53 AM   #9
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Yah im not ready to quit with them.. they look REALLY good when they are heathy.. but when they are not... real eyesore!!...

Im intending to fill around them though. I noticed that the iron dosage I was attempting is a little too much.. I got a spat of fuzz algea on the leaves of these plants. I quit and it disappeared in about a day or so. I wonder if they do better in a soft water enviroment... OR MAYBE they need more epsom salts(mg so4?).. I dose the tank heavy in this chem and the plants sprout big time... and then die off... about as fast. Or at least I think so.. really hard to tell. It may also be partly the life cycle of the plant..they can't get out of the water like they want and so they fizzile up and die (try to).

Can I be moved to plant section???
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Old 08-04-2004, 11:42 PM   #10
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Ammannia gracillis was a nightmare for me. THe ONLY way I was able to grow it healthy (colorfull and NOT shriveled) was if I did not put it in high light conditions. I had to keep it around 1.5-2wpg conditions TOPS. ...and I was doing all sorts of things with ferts to no avail.
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Old 08-05-2004, 04:40 PM   #11
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Iam about sick of my plants. They have a die off and regen cycle.. and are hard to keep lush... if I could find some plant man close by that would trade them for something else I pry would...I won't ship them anymore. I tried that already and they just don't hold up well. I think that is why some places don't sell them.
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Old 08-05-2004, 11:04 PM   #12
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The plants you are talking about are really hard to keep Fedge. These are definitely more difficult than Watersprite and Vals.

You can't get discouraged when plants like these bomb.

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Old 08-06-2004, 08:20 PM   #13
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NOW YOU TELL ME!!! lol

well.. somedays I feel like dumping them.. other days I think that they add something to the tank. Maybe when I get a larger tank and have a few more months of experiance under my belt I will be able to really enjoy and more importantly UNDERSTAND these plants. OR maybe never understand them... It is so hard to propegate them (takes about two months!) that I can't really experiment too much (for fear of loosing them)...
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Old 08-07-2004, 12:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momotaro
You can't get discouraged when plants like these bomb.
No kidding. I don't think there is any hobbyists out there that hasn't lost a plant or struggled with a certain species before. Sometimes it could just be your water that it doesn't like, who knows. I've seen what I consider some of the best growers around to have problems with plants that I would consider "easy". I've definately had to go through my share of seeing what will and won't grow well for me in different conditions, I'm sure everybody else has. It's a long process, and can be a tedious task, but keep up the faith fedge. You will find plants that do and don't work for you all the time. I know I have lost some plants and later on down the road I might try my hand at growing them again. Hard to tell sometimes what is or isn't going to thrive in your exact water conditions. AG is definately not a super easy plant to grow.

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