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Old 04-07-2009, 02:38 AM   #1
helgymatt
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Sick Blue Rams - Updated W/pics


I'm worried my blue rams have something wrong with them. I'm not sure what it is.

I have had them for many months ~4 and they have been very healthy since then. A few weeks ago I added some cardinals and several of the cardinals have slowly died off. I have lost about 10 out of 24. Last week, one of my 10 rams was found dead stuck on my filter intake. I figured it was just an anomaly, but now I'm more worried.

The rams have lost their color, they shake a little and are acting weird, skittish. The top of them seem to be more white than usually.
Would this be a bacteria, fungus, parasite. Perhaps my cardinals infected them with something?

I have feed them blood worms and other things heavily over the past few weeks when I was trying to trap some fish in a bottle trap. Maybe that caused them bloat or something....?

Please help! I do not want to loose them.
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Old 04-07-2009, 04:28 PM   #2
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Chilodonella?
Columnaris?
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Old 04-07-2009, 06:05 PM   #3
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Some pictures and tank parameters would be good. Neons are almost always if not always wild caught so they could have brought something with them. Could the die off have caused an ammonia or nitrite spike?
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Old 04-07-2009, 08:40 PM   #4
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The tank is pressurized CO2, high light, EI fertilizer, yada yada yada. I'm fairly certain there was no ammonia or nitrite spike.

Also, I have cardinals, not neans. But yes, cardinals are usually wild caught too.

I could try to get some pictures, but I'm not sure it will show much.

I'm treating Malachite green to cure Chilodonella...if that is what the problem is. Hopefully it is planted-tank-safe.
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Old 04-07-2009, 11:23 PM   #5
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Here are a few photos to show the symptoms. Has anyone seen something like this before. The symptoms I'm seeing are sound typical of Chilodonella parasitic protazoa. You can see the cloudy white translucent patches on the body and especially the head. It is most visible from head on.

They definitely were not stressed enough to eat, but maybe the bloodworms were too enticing.

I'm just looking for someone who can confirm this is Chilodonella or something else and if Nox-ich will cure it. I do have access to a microscope so I could do some diagnostic work, but I would need someone to tell me what to look for and how to take a sample.


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Old 04-07-2009, 11:25 PM   #6
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notice some fish are more infected than others...
Also, I think I may have lost one or two over the night. I used to have 8 or 9 and I only counted 7 when I was feeding and taking pictures.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:07 AM   #7
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No one has anything to comment on this illness??
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:37 AM   #8
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I just took a closer look at my cardinals and it looks like they are sick too...with ich. I started treating Nox-ich - which is Malachite Green. Says that tetras should get a half-dose. It is also supposed to treat Chilodonella (What I suspect my rams may have).

I'm thinking about getting some Rid-ich, which has Malachite green as well as Formalin. It is supposed to be the "best" ich treatment.
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:04 AM   #9
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whatever it is, you should remove them and quarantine them ASAP. you shouldn't let them stay in the same tank as the others allowing them to get infected.

I don't know what they have though, but you could try some melaflex if it looks bacterial like..
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Old 04-08-2009, 04:12 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moogoo View Post
whatever it is, you should remove them and quarantine them ASAP. you shouldn't let them stay in the same tank as the others allowing them to get infected.

I don't know what they have though, but you could try some melaflex if it looks bacterial like..
I don't have a quarantine

Since I need to treat for ich, I need to treat the whole tank anyway. Quarantining the fish will not "kill" the ick in the main tank. How do you catch

By the way, how do you catch 15 cardinal tetras in a fully stocked 75 gallon tank?

I'm still trying to find out what my rams have...
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:41 AM   #11
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Sorry to hear that you have that mysterious illness too.

I had a rummynose who out of nowhere, got it. It didn't spread to other fish though, he carried it for a long time, up until I got rid of him a couple weeks ago (sold my school off). I did notice that overtime, his swimming behavior changed. Instead of gliding through swiftly, he could still swim fast, but his body movement turned into like a shark going left and right. He ate normally, behaved normally (aside from changed swimming style) and lived just fine. I think eventually, he started getting fin rot or some sort though. Not too drastic, but the fin rot might explain the changed swimming style...
I've had it before on a different rummynose, previous to the one I mentioned above. That one disappeared within a week or two, so I was kinda expecting the same for the 2nd time I got it. But it never did. I didn't treat either of them, so I'm really clueless to what it is.

It could be bacteria, if I had to choose a type. I would try upping the temp and dosing salt as if it were ich.

As for catching cardinals, I find them much easier to catch than rummies! You can also just wait till night time when they sleep. Haha...

If you can QT fish though (which I know you can't right now, but if!) you can take out all the fish and medicate them in a different tank. Turn the heat up in the maintank to 78 degrees or higher. Within 2-3 days, all of the ich in there should be dead. Should take less than 2 days really, but just to be safe ;-)
Ich can't live without a host and with temps as high as 78, they plop dead pretty fast due to a freakishly sped up metabolism.
I do this "scoop and medicate" method when I have inverts in the tank and I'm too impatient to do the salt treatment. Since salt treatment takes about 2 weeks while chemical meds only take 5-7 days.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:45 AM   #12
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You're going to mess up the microfauna of the aquarium by dumping in chemicals. I understand the concern about ich being everywhere, but yeah... it is but fish should be strong enough to be able to fight infection. It's not like once it's in there all fish get it- only the stressed ones will. Medicating an entire tank for one or two fish will stress the whole thing- which is getting the others who have nothing to do with the rams, sick.

It's the perfect time to set up a QT , IMO. If you can't get someone to agree, well, this may likely happen again and it really should be thought of as a precautionary technique so you dont lose your display fish that were diligently picked out and taken care of.

IMO, there's not much you can do for the rams without taxing the main tank. Cull, or QT. Med the main tank and you'll only get more complex problems IMO.
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Old 04-08-2009, 02:10 PM   #13
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Guys, All i have in this tank is rams and cardinals. BOTH are sick. If they both have parasites, what difference does it make if I treat them in the display tank or spend 4 hours catching them and treating them in a smaller tank???

Mess up the microfauna? If you don't know anything about the meds I'm using, I would rather not have advice like this being thrown around.
People frequently medicate without problems!

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewit...te=google_base
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:07 PM   #14
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I recently lost both of my female GBRs. They looked exactly like yours. After I lost the first female I started treating my entire tank (126g) with pimafix and melafix. I ended up loosing the second female. Not allot of options as it houses many red cherry shrimp and no quarantine tank available. After a full 7 days of treatment the male has recoverd and is doing good. It affected the females first though and the male was only showing a slight indication.
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Old 04-08-2009, 03:36 PM   #15
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Matt,
I had a similar problem with some fish I had and I used both Melafix and Pimafix together for 7 days then water change. These products are safe for plants. You still may lose some fish that have been affected but save the ones that aren't infected yet. Use the dosage amount on the bottle based on your aquarium size. Hope this helps. Also, remove your carbon or purigen from your filter during trreatment. Good Luck!!
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