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Old 03-05-2009, 08:03 PM   #16
hokuryu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfish View Post
Super glue is safe.

Despite it's toxic smell, etc...it will film up (polymerization reaction) almost immediately when in contact with water. It was originally used to close open wounds in humans when suture material was not readily available.
I don't know where I saw this earlier (and going on short-term memory, now), but I seem to recall the surgical stuff is a slightly different formulation, an octyl-group as opposed to a methyl group for the cyanoacrylate. I think the methyl group cements are known for their breakdown into formaldehyde, hence some of the concerns.

But I also recall what you're saying - the polymerization is so rapid, not much of an issue. That, coupled with what I've simply read on the vast amount of practical use seen among reef aquarists, led me to feel sanguine about its use.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:08 PM   #17
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It's so crazy, it just might work! I may just have to experiment with this (going completely against what I said earlier...women changing their minds...go figure). I just got in a great shipment of lava rocks. I was trying to figure out exactly how I wanted to attach the Java Moss, Christmas Moss, and Java Fern. I just happen to have some super glue gel, so it looks like I will be a scientist tomorrow! I'll keep you posted.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokuryu View Post
I don't know where I saw this earlier (and going on short-term memory, now), but I seem to recall the surgical stuff is a slightly different formulation, an octyl-group as opposed to a methyl group for the cyanoacrylate. I think the methyl group cements are known for their breakdown into formaldehyde, hence some of the concerns.

But I also recall what you're saying - the polymerization is so rapid, not much of an issue. That, coupled with what I've simply read on the vast amount of practical use seen among reef aquarists, led me to feel sanguine about its use.
All PCA (polycyanoacrylate) compounds still release formaldehyde during degradation. Yes, large alkyl polymers do release less formaldehyde, but the bigger reason they are used is because of reduced heat production during the polymerization process, leading to less tissue necrosis and irritation.

Interestingly enough, the "original" Krazy glue contains nearly 100% ethyl cyanoacrylate, which is still in use in some medical CA compounds today, mainly in the form of impenetrable liquid bandages.

With that said, heat production isn't a big factor when used in general aquaria, neither is the toxicity since polymerization begins almost immediately upon introduction of the CA compound to moisture/water.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:36 PM   #19
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Use the gel type super glue.
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfish View Post
All PCA (polycyanoacrylate) compounds still release formaldehyde during degradation. Yes, large alkyl polymers do release less formaldehyde, but the bigger reason they are used is because of reduced heat production during the polymerization process, leading to less tissue necrosis and irritation.

Interestingly enough, the "original" Krazy glue contains nearly 100% ethyl cyanoacrylate, which is still in use in some medical CA compounds today, mainly in the form of impenetrable liquid bandages.

With that said, heat production isn't a big factor when used in general aquaria, neither is the toxicity since polymerization begins almost immediately upon introduction of the CA compound to moisture/water.
Wow! - fascinating, Epic, thanks for the info. Especially so, the notion of forestalling necrosis. Do you happen to have any source material on this? Layman, former Corpsman/ortho scrub, dilettante's interest in medicine...
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Old 03-05-2009, 08:53 PM   #21
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I use it on myself when I get a cut, and it heals up a lot faster. You just need to make sure and stop the bleeding first to get a good seal on the cut.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:04 PM   #22
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As pointed out, Super Glue is tank safe and a better alternative to Band-Aids much of the time

It does break down in water though, which is not a problem when using it on something that will naturally attach over time, such as a java fern or coral plug. However, using it to attach non-living objects, the bond will probably only last a few months. Super Glue also cures an ugly white color underwater.
Again, not an issue if it is going to be grown over, but worth considering otherwise.
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Old 03-05-2009, 10:21 PM   #23
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Super safe, i use it in my reef and planted all the time. I really like Loktite Super Glue Gel because it forms a crust and cures fast under water. It is 100% cyanoacrylate. Though for direct contact to plants/corals i never use it. I use it for hardscape and equipment.
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:03 PM   #24
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Yeah i use super glue and it is safe, depend which you get.. But silicone would be your better choice
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:04 PM   #25
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Well I will give it try and see how it holds up. Was thinking of wiring the broken pieces and hiding the mend with moss.
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Old 03-06-2009, 12:30 AM   #26
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You can use aquamend putty to stick the wood together with the broken pieces. It's about 4 dollars at Lowes or Homedepot and is great for repairs.
http://images.the-house.com/aquamend_l-prod.jpg
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Old 03-06-2009, 01:09 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsc View Post
It does break down in water though, which is not a problem when using it on something that will naturally attach over time, such as a java fern or coral plug. However, using it to attach non-living objects, the bond will probably only last a few months. Super Glue also cures an ugly white color underwater.
Again, not an issue if it is going to be grown over, but worth considering otherwise.
Well, when it breaks down in water, does it release formaldehyde? According to Epic, it releases formaldehyde when it degrades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epicfish View Post
All PCA (polycyanoacrylate) compounds still release formaldehyde during degradation.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:21 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDahlin View Post
Well, when it breaks down in water, does it release formaldehyde? According to Epic, it releases formaldehyde when it degrades.
Yes, all PCA compounds release formaldehyde upon degradation. As hokuryu stated earlier, the larger groups (ie: octyl) degrade less and more slowly than smaller alkyl groups. With all the water changes we (are supposed to) do, I doubt that the formaldehyde would pose long-term danger, especially given the amount of CA we use when gluing plants to rock, etc..

And hokuryu, let me try to dig up some papers. I've forgotten the password to my proxy to let me access ScienceDirect and other archives. I'll mirror them once I find the papers.
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDahlin View Post
Well, when it breaks down in water, does it release formaldehyde? According to Epic, it releases formaldehyde when it degrades.
I'm going to defer to Epic for that one

My comment was based on my experiences. After a few months, the white glue splotches disappear, and any plants that haven't anchored themselves to something will start to break loose. At no point have I seen health problems in fish or shrimp that I could associate with the glue. My current low tech tank has had numerous gluings over the past year, and the shrimp and fish are thriving.

Take from that what you will, I'm certainly no scientist!
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Old 03-06-2009, 02:42 AM   #30
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Here are some underwater epoxy products.
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/group/10523/product.web

AquaStik Putty - Stone Grey - 4 oz.

The AquaStik Stone Grey Epoxy works on dry, damp, or wet surfaces and cures underwater. AquaStik is non-toxic to fish, invertebrates, aquatic plants, reptiles and small animals. It is excellent for attaching live rock, stony corals, gorgonians, aquatic plants, and other aquascaping items. It also bonds to wood, concrete, ceramics, acrylic, metals, and fiberglass. Aquastik can be drilled, sanded, sawed, and machined and is useful for making repairs.

AquaStik is hand kneadable and fast curing. It has no strong oder. It mixes in minutes and hardens in 20 minutes. It is at full strength cure in 24 hours. The stick format eliminates waste or mis-proportioning. The clay-like consistency affords no-mess application requiring no tools. It can be used in marine and freshwater aquariums, ponds, reptile and small animal habitats.


Aqua Stick Putty for Marine Reefs - Red - 2 oz.

Help those corals get a grip in your tank. Use Aquastick red putty to secure your reef specimins to live rock. Red color looks like beautiful corraline algae. Excellent for securing rock, stony corals, gorgonians and aquatic plants. Non-toxic to fish, plants & small animals. Cures dry, damp, or underwater.
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