Karackle's guppy/endler experiment RIP - taken down in preparation for moving - Page 2
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:12 AM   #16
Complexity
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How about just doing it for fun and not worrying about selling anything to LFS or getting too caught up in the details. Do what you want and enjoy yourself.

If you're wanting to be sure you can identify the male and female that produced the fry, then you'll have to do a one on one. Trust me, they'll do it no matter how many you put together and one on one will work just fine.

As far as fry surviving in your community tank, you have to be sure to give the fry lots of hiding places. Floating plants for the surface and low grasses, mosses or what have you for the bottom. And then plenty of plant mass in the middle.

Don't worry about feeding them because they'll nibble on algae on the plants and find the tiny pieces of food that other fish miss.

A fun way to maybe try it is to keep your males and females separated (at least separate the breeding females). When you're ready, put the male and female you want to breed together so they can do their thing. Then put each fish back in their tanks. Let the female drop her fry in the community tank and allow the fry to grow up on its own (with lots of hiding places given). Some fry won't make it, but some fry will. If you like the results, then stick with the same mix. If not, try a different mix. Of course, given that you're probably not starting out with pure strains of guppies or endlers, you'll probably get a variety, but you should get some that come out the same.

If you find something you really like, then go for a second generation. And on and on and on.

If you really enjoy it, you'll naturally gravitate to the guppy breeding sites and learn all the details. If not, then you'll just have fun dabbling in it for your own hobby. Heck, just letting different guppies and endlers mate on their own can come up with some fun colors and patterns which you can then pick out and try to replicate.

Some people breed towards a specific goal in mind. They want a certain color, pattern, body and tail shape, and all. For me, I like the surprise of having no idea what will come from the mix. Everyone's different. Just do what you enjoy in whatever manner you enjoy it.
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:52 AM   #17
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Hey Vicki, thanks for the input! I'm definitely just doing this for fun, so I guess you're right I don't really need to know which parents are which, and I guess I'd probably be able to tell based on what the babies look like if more than one male contributed

I do actually already have the males and females separated so I at least know that I'm not just getting endler/endler or guppy/guppy crosses. Aside from that, I'm just mostly curious to see what happens and now that I think about it anyway, I wouldn't neccessarily know which female endler was which unless I kept them in a separate tank the whole month until the fry are dropped, but i think the females would do better and drop healthier fry if I keep them in my well established tanks until they're ready to drop their fry and then I'll separate them to drop their fry. The females are in my 20g where i've only ever had 1 fry survive, even when I had a huge wisteria forest, so I'll probably have to separate them to get any surviving fry, but I figure it's easier to raise fry in a small tank so that should be ok
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Old 10-26-2008, 07:14 AM   #18
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I raised a bunch in a 2.5g tank. As soon as one got large enough for me to determine its gender, I moved it either my 20L or 75g. They don't have to get very big before the adult fish no longer see them as food.

Also an interesting tidbit... Female guppies will eat their own fry even as they're dropping, but female endlers don't!

I also found that my guppy fry was much smaller than my endler fry. Don't know if it's just my particular ones (I just have one female endler) or if that's across the board.

All of my guppy/endler hybrids were colored, including all females. However, the endler coloring was very obvious on a couple of the males (actually quite pretty). Actually, now that I'm thinking of it, maybe I'll put those males in with the females to see what the next generation will be!
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Old 10-26-2008, 06:36 PM   #19
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I have an extra/quarantine tank that's approximately the same size as a 2.5g (it's a plastic critter keeper but I measured the sides and compared and it's about the same) so that should be perfect! I'll let you know if I see a size difference between first dropped endler vs. guppy fry. My first batch a fry were pure guppies from the group tank at the store, so i should have a good comparison base! I have 3 different and very pretty colored guppy males and I can't wait to see how they look when crossed with the endler females! I think they'll be gorgeous. Especially the magenta male I have, i think those babies should be stunning!

Well if you do do a second generation cross with your hybrids you'll definitely have to keep us posted as to what they look like! I'd love to see pics of the first generation if you can get them too

Oh and one more question for you Vicki, what did you use for filtration in the guppy baby tank?
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Old 10-27-2008, 01:13 AM   #20
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I used an Azoo nano filter. Just put pantihose or something over the intake so it can't suck in the fry.

Guess what I accidently found last night? I have a little fry in my tank! I had thought the females had been separated from the males long enough to stop dropping fry, but I guess not!

I can't find it today so it's hiding pretty well. Some of the adult guppies checked it out last night, but didn't try to eat it. So it's probably a couple of weeks old. I'd love to see it in the light so I can see if it has any colors or markings to tell me if it's from a guppy or the female endler I have.

When I get this move done and have everything settled back in, I'll try to take some pics. I'd like the pics just for my records anyway. The ones I have in mind are really pretty and quite different from what I've seen before. I think you'll enjoy them!
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Old 10-27-2008, 02:56 AM   #21
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heehee i hope you find the guppy again (i know that's repeating myself, but i feel bad I hijacked bra_van's thread so i figured i'd move the convo over to this one that I started ) It'll also be fun to see whether it's a guppy or endler baby It's definitely understandable to wait to take the pictures until after you get moved and settled in! But I'll be eagerly waiting for them when you have time to take them! heehee

Right now i have an air-pump powered corner filter for the tank, perhaps i'll upgrade to a nano HOB, they're cheap and easy to come by! Not sure how I'll put it on the critter keeper though unless I just go with no top....are guppies big jumpers? I know you said you keep yours in a 2.5 and those come with a solid glass piece for the top, so do you just leave yours open topped? I might have plexi or screen i can use to whip up a top i think....or see if I can find a cheap small tank on CL! heehee
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:01 AM   #22
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I'm repeating myself, too, as I just replies about the little guppy/endler fry in the other thread! Oh, well.

Guppies are not jumpers. I was going to cut the glass lid to make it into a miniature version of the normal lids, but never did it. So the lid sits on top with a little bit sticking out in front.
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karackle View Post
dbosman - I'll take a look at the available space again (and my wallet ) to see if I can fit a 5 or 10g growout tank somewhere.
Wal-Mart sells 10gal bare glass tanks for $9.99. They usually get three to
four of them every time they restock but they sell out fast. I buy three at
a time for grow-outs, qt's, and for people needing a fast tank.

- Brad
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:41 PM   #24
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Thanks for the suggestion! I've been trying to figure out where I could fit a 10g (since they're cheaper than 5.5s or even 2.5s if i recall) but I just don't have the space for it unfortunately. I'm thinking I could set up a pair (one for males one for females) of large, 5.5gish sized, plastic critter keepers on the shelf under my 30g or something like that though. It's not a huge problem yet with just 10 babies, but once i have more i'll need to figure out something. Perhaps on the bottom most shelf of my emtpy-ish bookshelves I could find room for some larger sized tanks.....we'll see, i'll figure somehting out!
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:06 PM   #25
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Just a quick update, the black neon and the glowlight tetra that had been inhabiting my QT for the past few weeks were finally able to get replaced into their respective homes, so I was able to move the guppies from the breeder net i got to house them temporarily into the 2.5g QT tank. At the moment it has an air-powered corner filter, but today is payday so I'll see about getting a small HOB for it instead. My car is in the shop and is going to cost about 4x what I originally thought, so any other raising supplies are going to have to wait. But since it'll be a month or more until I have another batch to raise, this should do just fine for now!

As I was feeding after moving the little ones to their new home, I discovered one more baby in the 30g tank, so that brings the total of little ones to 11. I guess they survive a lot better in my 30 than in my 20! There's a lot more moss and and bushy plants for hiding spaces, and most of the hungry mouths are far smaller than those in the 20g So it looks like the dad of the babies is a half black, or half-black with leopard tale because some of the babies are looking pretty dark on their tails. I've read this makes sexing a bit harder though. Ah well, I'll see what i can do! I thought I might've seen a gravid spot on a couple of them, but they're only 10 days old, so i'll give it a little more time before I try to separate them by sex.
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Old 10-28-2008, 05:31 PM   #26
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Oh and one more questions, when i do put the pairs together to breed, how long should I leave them together? A few hours? a few days? something in between?

Thanks!
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:24 PM   #27
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Anyone? suggestions on how long i should leave a pair together?
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:23 AM   #28
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I'd leave them together till the female starts to plump up.

And if it fits into your breeding plans, if possible, have multiple females to breed with each male. This way the male doesn't chase a single female into exhaustion.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:53 AM   #29
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That shouldn't be a problem, I was thinking about taking my 1 female guppy out of the 20g and isolating her and then putting 1 of the 3 (or maybe all 3) make guppies from the 30g into the 20g to mate with the female endlers. Or would it be better to avoid moving fish from tank to tank and put the breeders in a separate mating tank? If that's the case I'll probably have to wait until I can get a slightly larger tank and better filter because I don't want to move the babies into the smaller QT i have because it's quite small and i don't want to move them again.
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:04 AM   #30
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I'm not really sure I followed that... LOL

What I would do is put the females first in the spawning/fry rearing tank, and condition them there. Then add the male(s). Once the females appear pregnant, remove the male(s). Then once the females have dropped their fry, remove them, too.

I've heard that Endlers don't eat their fry to the extent that most other fish will, but I have heard reports that they will on occasion. (IME it's the rare fish that won't eat whatever moves and is small enough to fit in their mouths...)
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