Karackle's guppy/endler experiment RIP - taken down in preparation for moving
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:50 PM   #1
Karackle
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Karackle's guppy/endler experiment RIP - taken down in preparation for moving


So I have this little "for fun" experiment in mind where I want to make some Guppy/Endler hybrids and see what I come up with, mostly I want to see if I can get a clutch of fry that have endler looking males with less dull looking females. But I'm intrigued to see what all I come up with, and I'll hand off the fry to my LFS when they're big enough.

So currently I've got my females all in my 20g and my males all in my 30g so that I can let the females drop any fry they may have been pregnant with when they arrived before i start my endeavor. When I'm ready to mate them I'll put the males and females of my choosing into a separate home for a few days to let them do their thing and then I will move them back to their respective tanks. I'll let the females hang out in the community tanks for a few weeks while the fry are developping, the conditions are stable so I figure that's better than keeping then separated from the get go. I'll move them to wherever I decide I'm going to house the fry after about 3 weeks (so about a week before they're theoretically supposed to start dropping fry) (let me know if it seems like there are any issues with my plan thus far)

On to my question

Is there a good way to separate the female to drop the fry / raise the fry in one of the community tanks (but of course separate from the other fish)? I live in a small apartment so real estate is at a premium and I already have my 30g, 5g and Gecko set up in my bedroom (along with my QT tank on my desk....kind of in the way but no where else to put it) My 20g is in my hall and I have 2 dogs that run amok...So the less space I take up with this project the better. I've heard the floating "breeder boxes" are not that great and can cause stress on the mom, but I'm wondering whether those green mesh bags that can be hung on the side would work? That way there's be no need for water changed, they'd get flow and filtration, but would be away from the hungry mouths of the other fish in my tank....and much easier to separate out when it's time for them to go!

I know i'll have to move them into something larger at some point because they'll probably outgrow the breeder net before they're large enough to go to the LFS, but if I could cut down on the time I need the extra tank set up that would be great.

Or if anyone has any other ideas they'd like to suggest please let me know.

I have a little time to think about this and gather my supplies since I want to give the females another few weeks to drop any fry they might cook up in their ovens with stored sperm :-P

Thanks in advance!
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Last edited by Karackle; 07-13-2009 at 03:42 PM..
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Old 10-16-2008, 07:56 PM   #2
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you will need to wait like 6 months untill you know that the females no longer have sorted sperm... I would just use virgin female fry to start this experiment.

I would not recommended selling these to a LFS you either need to keep them or not do this. But thats just my opinion.
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:06 PM   #3
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Hmm 6 month....well I've had them for about 2-3, so another 3-4 will put me right around when I'll be getting less busy so that should be good timing....I do have some virgin female endlers though so I could start with them.

May I ask why you think I shouldn't give them to the LFS?
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:13 PM   #4
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Because people will buy them and not realize that they are hybrids. In this case it is not a big risk, but I would just feed anyones I didnt want to another fish.
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:19 PM   #5
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Ah I see your point, I'd make sure the LFS knew they were hybrids, or just give them as feeders since by the time I knew whether they were specimens I wanted to keep they'd probably be big enough to survive in my community tanks. Thanks for the input!

Would still love some input on the raising / separating questions too
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Old 10-16-2008, 08:27 PM   #6
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here is how i raise fry from my pigmy guppies:
-place guppies of both genders in my community tank along with all kinds of fish like rams, rainbows, tetras, danios, SAE, etc.
-feed all the fish
-keep feeding
-notice the female went from really fat to skinny
-notice fry
-feed fish as normal and see fry grab food as it snags in the hornwort
-see fry grow and start to swim around un-afraid
-see fry develop into their genders
-see the 2nd generation make the 3rd generation, all in the 20L

livebearers are not fish that need to be bred. the just need to be allowed to breed themselves.
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Old 10-16-2008, 09:03 PM   #7
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Thanks for the input, the thing is though, I've had females drop fry in my 20g and I've only ever had 1 figure out how to hide well enough that he made it to adulthood. I feed live food about once a week so I think my fish have learned that small swimming things are fair game or something, not sure, either way guppy fry don't tend to survive in my community tank. Also, since I want to try and hybrid the guppies and endlers, i want to be able to keep everyone separated, I want to know who the parents are and see which crosses make the coolest looking babies. That is why I'm wondering whether one of those net breeder things (like this) is a good way to do that, or if I should find a spot for a fry raising tank.

Also....pygmy guppies?! sounds cool!
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Old 10-16-2008, 10:31 PM   #8
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Here is what can be done.
http://members.cox.net/newcomb1/elbguppymix.html

If your goal is colorful females, I suggest you spend some time at the guppy breeding sites. A LOT of work has been done on this already. Since space is at a premium for you, you might be further ahead to follow up on somebody elses work.

Good luck.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karackle View Post
Thanks for the input, the thing is though, I've had females drop fry in my 20g and I've only ever had 1 figure out how to hide well enough that he made it to adulthood. I feed live food about once a week so I think my fish have learned that small swimming things are fair game or something, not sure, either way guppy fry don't tend to survive in my community tank. Also, since I want to try and hybrid the guppies and endlers, i want to be able to keep everyone separated, I want to know who the parents are and see which crosses make the coolest looking babies. That is why I'm wondering whether one of those net breeder things (like this) is a good way to do that, or if I should find a spot for a fry raising tank.

Also....pygmy guppies?! sounds cool!
hmm, that complicates things. i feed live food only a few times a year, and then its brine shrimp which looks nothing like a fish fry.
see, if fry are confined to smaller quaters, they grow much slower. and if they are grouped together, the grow even slower. when i had way too many fry once, i put the female in a breeding cage for a few hours while she was dropping her fry, and then raised them in a 2.5 gallon tank. but they grew much slower then the 4 siblings that were dropped inside the tank and grew up in the 20L. you wont be able to raise 50 fry in a pint of water.
i reccomend keeping the endlers and guppies in your community, and setting up a nano (like 5 gallons) with a small filter with some kind of prefilter so the fry arent sucked in, and putting the females in that after they are really pregnant until they drop their fry. maybe put a breeding trap in there if the female tries eating the fry, so she cant get to the older fry. but id say you can only have 2 batches of fry in there at a time maximum.

yeah, i had an eclipse 6 so i could only keep small fish. so i mixed feeders and fancies, and then selectively sold the largest, drabbest guppies. now they are all tiny and colorful (and come in grey, black-blue, and orange). took the past 4 years though... but i wasnt really trying, just giving away the bad ones.
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Old 10-16-2008, 11:35 PM   #10
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If your going to do this you should get another tank to grow fry. You could get away with a ten but a 20L would be better. Fry grow fast when you feed good food multiple times a day bbs works wonders along with a quality flake. The water conditions in your fry tank need to be optimal daily small water changes of about 10-15% are good and Id recommend a bare bottomed tank. As soon as the fry can be sexed anywhere from 3/4 weeks seperate the males and females as soon as possible. This way your females can put food/energy to growth versus being pregnant which will give you bigger drops when you do breed them. I think you'll have fun and see some nice looking fish as the hybrids are usually stunning looking when you get a good combo good luck.
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Old 10-18-2008, 01:25 AM   #11
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dbosman - thanks for the link! I'll have to peruse it thoroughly, and I'll take a look into some of the guppy breeding forums as well.

@Marko@ - Thanks, I guess trying to raise the fry in one of those net breeders would be similar to raising them in a pint of water....just with better water conditions. I'll take a look at the available space again (and my wallet ) to see if I can fit a 5 or 10g growout tank somewhere.

blisskr - thanks for the input, sounds good! I guess I will have to make space for a growout tank somewhere if I'm gonna try this, even if it's just for fun. And I think separating the females from the males as soon as they're discernable from one another is a good idea to keep the females healthy.

Thanks for the input everyone!

In other news...the female that was temporarily in holding in my 30g while I was waiting to make sure there was no more fungus in my 20g dropped her fry today, and some of them are swimming around and hiding in some pieces of of broken of Wisteria. I'm guessing that the Zebra danios and maybe the other guppies got some of them because I only saw about 5 or 6 still swimming around, but they've been doing a good job of hiding and they ate some food! So I might use virgin females from her (she was preggo when I brought her home) as my guppy breeding females.
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Old 10-18-2008, 05:01 PM   #12
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So far I've still got at least 6 baby guppies might try to catch them and get them separated later today or tomorrow so I can continue to keep my males and females separated til i'm ready to breed them purposely!
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Old 10-25-2008, 07:00 PM   #13
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When I separated the guppy babies I found I actually had 10! I can't discern the males from the females yet, but I can see some color starting to show on some of them, if I had to guess i'd say they're gonna be the males but it's too early to tell yet.

Another question: when I set up matings, should I put say, 2 male guppies with 3-5 female endlers? Should I do one and one? or 1 male guppy to 2-3 female endlers? If I put more than 1 male in with the females, will the babies only come from the more dominant male?

Thanks in advance!
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Old 10-25-2008, 08:57 PM   #14
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Genetics of guppies is a well studied science. Every question you have asked is answered at the guppy breeding sites. Google guppy breeding and you will get 67,000 plus hits. Guppy genetics turns up almost 63,000 hits.

I do understand what you want.
I'm in the process of crossing wild type Endler males with virgin female red tail guppies.

I keep P class wild type Endlers. That's what got me started. I'm giving those away for local pickup near East Lansing MI. I'm moving up to N class soon.
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Old 10-26-2008, 04:30 AM   #15
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Thanks dbos, I've been looking at a lot of guppy breeding sites, but I figured I'd consult here to see if I could get a quick answer to the how many males vs. females to put together though
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