How to do weekly water changes on non-CO2? - Page 2
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > Low Tech Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-26-2008, 02:26 AM   #16
KDahlin
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
KDahlin's Avatar
 
PTrader: (31/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonD70s View Post
i do about %70 water change every week on my low-tech no co2 60 gallon tank. and no algae bloom what so ever, and the tank looks super clean and clear after every change. could be my tap water? i dont know i never check any of the water paremeters.
I don't understand that. That goes against the theory. Maybe I should do a poll of non-CO2 users who do weekly or frequent water changes and find out how many have algae.
__________________
Kathy

"We are living on this planet as if we have another one to go to". T. Swearingen
KDahlin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-26-2008, 02:39 AM   #17
Minsc
Wannabe Guru
 
Minsc's Avatar
 
PTrader: (58/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 1,051
Default

I think Tom Barr may have elevated CO2 in his water that screws up his tanks
I've never seen any issue arise from water changes myself.
Minsc is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 05:15 AM   #18
BradH
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 914
Default

I was doing weekly water changes in my non co2 low light tank. I started getting algae. I didn't realize that I was doing anything with co2 fluctuations by doing the water changes. I'm now going to stop doing water changes and treat it like Diana Walstad and Tom Barr suggest.
BradH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 08:38 PM   #19
Lucky_13
Planted Member
 
Lucky_13's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 159
Default

I have always thought that weekly water changes (every two weeks with low bio load) is necessary for every tank, regardless of low tech, high tech, low light, high light, whatever. I've always done about 20% every week, 50% on higher bio-load tanks and the only algae problems i've ever gotten was some black hair algae that I cleared up with hydrogen peroxide and blue green algae from low nitrates.
__________________
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Celeste_Eden/my%20art/lucky13copy.jpg
Lucky_13 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 10:02 PM   #20
BradH
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky_13 View Post
I have always thought that weekly water changes (every two weeks with low bio load) is necessary for every tank, regardless of low tech, high tech, low light, high light, whatever. I've always done about 20% every week, 50% on higher bio-load tanks and the only algae problems i've ever gotten was some black hair algae that I cleared up with hydrogen peroxide and blue green algae from low nitrates.
I think this applies to low light, non co2, heavily planted tanks. The plants and fish balance everything out. If you have co2 or highlight, then you can do the water changes. Thats what I've gathered from reading and from talking to Tom on his site. I'm no expert, hence why I seeked him for advice, but as long as he's been at it, I'm going to trust he knows and do it the way he suggest.
BradH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 11:09 PM   #21
KDahlin
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
KDahlin's Avatar
 
PTrader: (31/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 661
Default

I would agree with you BradH, Tom Barr is the expert and that's why I definitely listen to what he has to say. But it's worth questioning here why a number of people have attested to doing weekly or frequent water changes on their non-CO2 tanks without encountering algae problems. I'm wondering why this is.
__________________
Kathy

"We are living on this planet as if we have another one to go to". T. Swearingen
KDahlin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 11:33 PM   #22
BradH
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDahlin View Post
I would agree with you BradH, Tom Barr is the expert and that's why I definitely listen to what he has to say. But it's worth questioning here why a number of people have attested to doing weekly or frequent water changes on their non-CO2 tanks without encountering algae problems. I'm wondering why this is.

I would like to know as well. However he did say that if you use excel, then you DO need to do the water changes.
BradH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-26-2008, 11:43 PM   #23
lauraleellbp
Fresh Fish Freak
 
lauraleellbp's Avatar
 
PTrader: (69/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 22,911
Default

I think you need to look at your plant mass versus biomass versus lighting.

There's no "one size fits all" in planted tanks- just general guidelines that you experiment with to see what works with your own tank.

No one's water parameters, lighting, PAR, biomass, plant mass are ever EXACTLY the same- even from tank to tank within the same household.

I've got algae in my tank, but as long as it's not overtaking my plants I don't worry about it. Keeps my Amano shrimp and Otos well-fed.
__________________
lauraleellbp is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2008, 03:00 AM   #24
Homer_Simpson
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
Posts: 1,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDahlin View Post
... Maybe I should do a poll of non-CO2 users who do weekly or frequent water changes and find out how many have algae
FWIW, I set up a 5 gallon non co2 hex tank as per Tom Barr's method with some variation. The tank was set up March 2008. The inhabitants were Amano Shrimp and an otocat. The plants included: tiger lotus, ambulia, onion plant, anubias, crytopcorne.

Water changes have been 50% weekly followed by a pinch of phosphates, potassium, calcium sulphate, magnesium, and trace mineral. I dose about 3x recommended dose of Excel for a 5 gallon tank and have been doing so since the tank was set up. I have not noticed any ill effects on the plants or inabitants at that dosage. Why such huge water changes? I am biased towards such water changes as I have found in my 8 years of keeping fish that such water changes have heavily contributed to longer fish surival rates. Also, considering that Amano Shrimp and Otos tend to be more sensitive to water quality, I don't like to take chances by doing infrequent water changes. For me water changes are more than for the plants, they are about short term and long term health of my inhabitants.

As far as algae goes, I had a diatom algae bloom a month of the tank being set up. This is not unsual and most newly planted and non-planted tanks often develop diatom algae. The otocat made short work of the diatom algae. This was followed by green dust algae that lasted about two months and disappeared without any action on my part. It seems that the water became increasingly clear and the plant growth appeared to get better over time. I used a layered substrate(dusting of peat, crushed Seachem fert tabs, leonardite, thin layer of schultz aquatic soil and onyx sand cap). The plants appeared to really like the substrate right off the bat and laid out deep thick roots, which I believe contributed to healthy short term and long term plant growth and may explain why the tank has done as well as it has.
Homer_Simpson is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2008, 07:34 AM   #25
KDahlin
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
KDahlin's Avatar
 
PTrader: (31/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradH View Post
I would like to know as well. However he did say that if you use excel, then you DO need to do the water changes.
When I use Excel on my 24 gallon tank, it seems to exacerbate the algae problem.
__________________
Kathy

"We are living on this planet as if we have another one to go to". T. Swearingen
KDahlin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2008, 03:44 PM   #26
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (253/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDahlin View Post
Well, maybe I misread this article. That's what I took away from it: http://www.barrreport.com/articles/4...2-methods.html
there are some caveats: if you have a balanced tank, then removing water and removing the nutrients, which are often very low, will lead to algae, if you over load the non CO2 planted tank, then the issue is very different.

Smaller % works better, try 50% if you want to test it.

Alan had a lot of issues with a large predator tank and went to daily automated water changes and got rid of the algae. He could not use CO2 well in the tank either. So this took care of things.

Point is, you do not need to do water changes and light, the type of plants, whether some are floating, out of water make a large difference, tap water etc likely as well and general stability. If you added a lot of plants from the start, then life is likely pretty good.

I have little issue with a mat of floating water sprite and higher current African rift tank doing water changes, the tank was loaded and the fish produced too much waste. The CO2 was not an issue as the plants are easy to grow and float.

I think the issue is really based more on folks with too much fish and they have to do water changes vs a balancing the plant/fish load. So why do the no water change tanks do so well? Have you tried not doing them or doing larger % water changes? Measure CO2 before and after the water changes?

Try it and see.

Regards,
Tom Barr
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-27-2008, 05:49 PM   #27
Bugman
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Bugman's Avatar
 
PTrader: (11/100%)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Posts: 792
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I think the issue is really based more on folks with too much fish and they have to do water changes vs a balancing the plant/fish load. So why do the no water change tanks do so well?
I now have 4 low/med light non Co2 tanks. Before starting the first one I read some post from Tom about balance in a low light and no water changes. That is what my intent was with these tanks and it has worked very well. The tanks are heavily planted and not maxed out on fauna. I do dose with excel every other day. I have excellent plant growth with healthy plants and the fish do very well also. NO water changes are done at all unless something goes really wrong. I simple top off due to evaporation. I have 3 tanks that get a 50% change weekly due to EI. If I had to do water changes on all 7 tanks I would have to throw up the white flag.
Bugman is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2008, 01:14 AM   #28
KDahlin
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
KDahlin's Avatar
 
PTrader: (31/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
there are some caveats: if you have a balanced tank, then removing water and removing the nutrients, which are often very low, will lead to algae, if you over load the non CO2 planted tank, then the issue is very different.

Smaller % works better, try 50% if you want to test it.

Alan had a lot of issues with a large predator tank and went to daily automated water changes and got rid of the algae. He could not use CO2 well in the tank either. So this took care of things.

Point is, you do not need to do water changes and light, the type of plants, whether some are floating, out of water make a large difference, tap water etc likely as well and general stability. If you added a lot of plants from the start, then life is likely pretty good.

I have little issue with a mat of floating water sprite and higher current African rift tank doing water changes, the tank was loaded and the fish produced too much waste. The CO2 was not an issue as the plants are easy to grow and float.

I think the issue is really based more on folks with too much fish and they have to do water changes vs a balancing the plant/fish load. So why do the no water change tanks do so well? Have you tried not doing them or doing larger % water changes? Measure CO2 before and after the water changes?

Try it and see.

Regards,
Tom Barr
My 24 g is not heavily stocked. I have a pair of dwarf cichlids, 3 emperor tetras, 2 otos, and 4 or 5 Amano shrimp. It's densely planted with bolbitis, anubias, java fern, and a few crypts. My problem with no water changes is I don't like the way no water changes tanks look. They don't look vibrant. I tried going for a period without water changes and I finally gave in; I couldn't do it. I didn't like looking at my tank. I don't like looking at it so much with algae either. Right now the algae is particularly bad because I experimented with adding Excel - big mistake. I increased the ferts too with the Excel but the algae got worse.

I'll experiment with doing larger water changes; 50%/week. I had been doing 20%.

Thanks
__________________
Kathy

"We are living on this planet as if we have another one to go to". T. Swearingen
KDahlin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2008, 01:46 AM   #29
BradH
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 914
Default

So your saying that when you added excel it caused algae. Hell, I'm all confused now. lol

I have been adding excel to try to kill some bba myself.
BradH is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 10-28-2008, 05:09 AM   #30
KDahlin
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
KDahlin's Avatar
 
PTrader: (31/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 661
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BradH View Post
So your saying that when you added excel it caused algae. Hell, I'm all confused now. lol

I have been adding excel to try to kill some bba myself.
Spot treating with Excel will kill algae. Also, using dosages in excess of Seachem's recommended dose when using Excel as a carbon source, has been found to control algae.

In my tank, I used Seachem's recommended dose - and found that it exacerbated my algae situation. I have not tried overdosing Excel in this tank.
__________________
Kathy

"We are living on this planet as if we have another one to go to". T. Swearingen
KDahlin is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Tags
water changes

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012