co2 using a 10kg pail
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:21 AM   #1
wendyv
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Hi everyone, I am using 3 - 2 litre bottles with a bubble counter which goes into a Hagen ladder. It works fine but only for a week; then the bubbles start to slow down. Now what I was wondering is; I have this 10kg pail with a lid that I have a heck of a time getting off; it seals really well. Today I attacked a piece of silicone tubing into the lid and it is drying now. I was thinking of using it instead of all these bottles; attaching it to the bubble counter. Has anyone used anything this big before? If so, how much sugar, yeast, baking soda would you figure I should use? I am right now using 2 cups sugar, 1/2 teaspoon yeast and 1 teaspoon of baking soda to each 2 litre bottle. Since the pail is 5 times, I would think I would have 10 cups of sugar but not sure about how much yeast and baking soda to add? I wouldn't think I would do 5 times the yeast; do you still keep the yeast at about the same amount (1/2 teaspoon) as that is what is eating the sugar? Also not sure about the baking soda how much to add?
Thanks if anyone knows.
Wendy
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:41 AM   #2
ninoboy
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Isn't it gonna cost more in the long run compare to pressurized?
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:46 AM   #3
wendyv
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Probably in the long run; but for now I would like to use it and get rid of these 3 2 litre bottles. Last time I had a leak in one of my T connectors and had a heck of a time finding it; so figure if I go with the one big pail; that would solve that part of the problem.
My husband isn't into my spending anymore money right now on my "fish tanking" as he calls it; so even if it costs mainly for the sugar; he doesn't seem to mind that. Got to keep our spouse's happy:lol:.
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:03 AM   #4
ninoboy
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Hey, I had a leaking T-connector last month also. That was the last place that I checked. Now I just use silicone some silicone sealant to seal around it and I don't disconnect from the T when I refill or switch bottle.

I'm not really sure about the amount of yeast. I would start with 1.5 teaspoon maybe. I realized that the CO2 production is not constant when I use too much yeast.

What brand of yeast do you use? I have bad production using Fleishman active dry yeast. It starts real slow, then produces a lot, then drop down after a week only. I switch back to Red Star (actually I used this one first before Fleishman). It starts very fast and the production last more than twice longer (I change every 18 days by using 1/2 tsp).

About the baking soda, I did some research last month and found out that it actually act as buffer. If you have high KH, you can use less of it. The solution inside the bottle becomes acidic overtime and will kill the yeast. Using baking soda/buffer will prolong the yeast life in there.
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Old 03-09-2004, 04:05 PM   #5
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Thanks, I have never heard of Red Star around here; think they only have the Fleishmanns. They do have beer and wine yeasts though at the brew places; maybe I'll try one of those?
My kh isn't really high; so wonder how much baking soda to put in and if there is a limit to the amount as I could put 5 teaspoons in or whatever? Anyone know if you can put too much baking soda in? Maybe with 1 teaspoon per bottle it is not enough and the yeast is getting killed off too fast; is that possible and that is why the bubbles are only lasting about a week with a good amount of bubbles? Beginning to feel like the mad scientist:lol:.
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Old 03-09-2004, 04:22 PM   #6
ninoboy
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The prod. of CO2 also dropped quite noticeaby after a week when I use Fleishmann yeast so I don't really think it's the lack of baking soda. My KH is 6.7 and my Redstar mixture is still running strong after 12 days although I forgot to put baking soda in that bottle.

I'm really not sure though whether different brand of yeast react differently with different tap water condition. So I can't really tell you that Redstar is a better brand.
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Old 03-13-2004, 10:02 PM   #7
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I've been doing quite a bit of my own research and experimentation; I'm a real chemistry nerd and this stuff is exciting. :roll: Anyway this is what I have discovered:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ninoboy
The prod. of CO2 also dropped quite noticeably after a week when I use Fleishmann yeast so I don't really think it's the lack of baking soda. My KH is 6.7 and my Redstar mixture is still running strong after 12 days although I forgot to put baking soda in that bottle.
-Don't use baking soda. Ninoboy, as you clearly pointed out, your setup WITHOUT baking soda is running longer than the setup WITH baking soda. Although you used different brands of yeast and do not know if that is the reason of better longevity, I have used both Redstar and Fleishmanns and IME both are pretty equal in production. Therefore the baking soda is the reason of poorer production.

I'm not sure where the myth developed about acids killing yeast, because actually, yeasts are far better off in acidic conditions. Yeast can tolerate alkaline conditions, but what they can not tolerate is Na+ ions from baking soda that kills them(NaHCO3). Simply, don't use baking soda.

I have narrowed down the problem of short lived production to high alcohol concentration. I did some of my own stoichiometric calculations of the common recipe of "2 cups sugar per 2 liter bottle" which ends up to let us use 1.20 liters water (when filled to the point the bottle starts to narrow).

The paragraph below contains chemistry jargon and just shows all the reasoning and calculations for the answer I have found...skip to the bottom if you wish to pass.

By the balanced equation: C12H22O11 + H2O ---> 4 CH3CH2OH + 4 CO2. That is 1 mol of sucrose (sugar) reacts with 1 mol water to make 4 mol ethanol (alcohol) and 4 mol carbon dioxide. 2 cups of sugar about = 2 mol and 1.20 liters water @ 70F is about = 67 mol (many various conversions to reach these mol answers.) Therefore, sucrose by far is the limiting reactant and in the process, 8 mol of alcohol are made (2 mol sugar x 4 mol alcohol/1 mol sugar = 8 mol alcohol). Some of this alcohol is lost to vaporization, though since the vapor pressure of alcohol is not overly appreciable, most stays in the solution - and alcohol is lethal to yeast. Over the course of this reaction, the alcohol concentration increases to under 30% by mass. (under because some has vaporized). I've have read that bread yeast has a tolerance of about 5% but none of them specify if this is by mass, though it probably is - does anyone know? Anyway, as we can see, they are dieing of early because of the alcohol.

In conclusion, the best solution is to use a yeast with higher alcohol tolerance. Wine and Champagne yeasts have levels of 17-22% tolerance, though again I don't know what the percentages are of (mass, mols, volume, widgets...). Or as wendyv was thinking of doing, use a bucket of water so the alcohol doesn't become too concentrated. If this is the path taken, we don't want to increase our sugar dosing. Another solution is just to use regular 2 liter bottles, but to use allot less sugar.

I personally like to use more water with the same amount of sugar, but not a whole bucket. I used to use one 2 liter bottle with 2 cups of sugar, but now I use three 2 liter bottles and still only use 2 cups of sugar. The production has been extended from 1 week to 3 weeks.
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