fish deaths and ich problems????
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Old 12-30-2002, 09:54 PM   #1
cvarcher
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I need some help here. I just started a 15 gal tank which has the heater set for 76,I have a whisper filter 2 and a substrate of flourite and volcanit .There are plants in there and driftwood and rock.It seems my ottos are dying and I thought maybe they are starving since theres really is no algae in there. I also have 5 rummy nose tetras and although they are swimming great and eating one died and the rest have ich.Im into it 2 1/2 weeks and the ammonia is zero,NO3 is zero ,Ph is 6.6,Co2 is at least 10-20ppm and Kh is 3.I do water changes once a week approx 20%.Will the Ich kill the rest? Should I try a medicine(which never worked with my reef fish),Should I buy Zoe vitamins to beef them up.I feed very sparingly.Whats going on??
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Old 12-31-2002, 01:42 PM   #2
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Hi Cvarcher,
I have a few questions:
Is the ich present on the other fish and to what degree?
Are the fish under stress?
Do you have activated carbon in your whisper filter?
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Old 12-31-2002, 01:46 PM   #3
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Shut down the CO2 immediately to get the PH back up , leave your lights off , do a 50 % water change and medicate your tank fast !
One of your fish might have had Ich at purchase or the stress of an uncycled environment may be doing it...
thats a lot of changes in your tank at such a fast pace...after all that you have added to that 15 gallon tank you probably really only have 12 gallons water volume due to displacement. You might have rushed it a bit...
Good luck man... I hate to hear these sad events ...
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Old 12-31-2002, 02:41 PM   #4
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I agree with Buck to a certain extent. There are 2 points where I disagree. Firstly with the CO2, I would not completely shut it down all at once. The PH shock would be extreme, putting your fish under stress. Instead I recommend you slowly lower the rate (if you can) until you can shut it off completely without 'shocking' the PH.

Then instead of a 50% water change, I would do say a 20% every day for 3-4 days, and then a 20% every day for a week or until you get rid of the ich.

Unlike in saltwater tanks, ich is not very hard to cure in a freshwater tank. Well atleast not as hard as in a saltwater tank.

Good Luck, and keep us updated!
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Old 12-31-2002, 07:31 PM   #5
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Rid ich works great! But like anything else make sure you follow the directions on the bottle religiously. I've also read that turning up the temp on the tank to like 82 degrees will speed up the life cycle of the ich and speed up the medication process by exposing more ich in thier most vulnerable stage. Again do the temp change over 24 hrs.

Good Luck:sad:
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Old 12-31-2002, 08:15 PM   #6
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Definately, I forgot about raising the temperature. Just as M. Lemay said this is an extremely effective way (with medication) to treat ich.
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Old 12-31-2002, 09:20 PM   #7
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Just wondering if the freshwater fish can overcome ich with proper nutrition and keeping water conditions excellent .They dont seem stressed anyway..I do have activated carbon in the whisper filter.The ich is on 3 of the 5 rummy nose.
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Old 01-01-2003, 07:19 AM   #8
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Here's a recommended treatment that I got from Tom and Nevin Baily that has worked well for me in the past.

1. Clean/power siphon the tank and gravel (removing and replacing up to 20% of the water). Don't go crazy, just do a regular cleaning, including brushing out siphon tubes, etc.

2. Remove activated carbon and add an anti-parasitic medication like QuickCure (available at Wal Mart) per the recommended dosage for the recommended number of days (at least 4) until the signs of ich are gone.

3. On day 1, also add 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons of water of Aquarium Salt (also available at WalMart). Dissolve the salt in a glass of aquarium water and pour it over the tank.

4. Raise the temperature in the aquarium by 4 degrees over 24 hours. (To a maximum of 82). This will speed up the life cycle of the ich. They are only vulnerable to the QuickCure in the brief free-swimming stage of their development.

5. Change 20% of the water in the tank every day, before adding that day's quick cure. This will help remove any built up contamination in the water and will also immediately start to reduce the salt content from the salt you added on day 1.

The advice you received on pH above is absolutely correct. pH changes stress fish. Change the pH no more than .5 up or down in any 24 hour period. If the fish are sick, try to keep the pH stable.

The salt will work in combination with the QuickCure to attack the parasites and will help the fish to heal. It's not the salt content itself that helps, it is the quick CHANGE in salt content that does the trick. The parasitic organisms don't adapt well to rapid changes in salinity. Further, with the daily 20% water changes, the salinity will soon return to near normal before it has a chance to really make your plants unhappy.

After all the signs of stress and disease have disappeared and your treatment regimine is complete, do a 20% water change and put fresh carbon in your filter.

Use the tests below and continue daily 20% water changes until your aquarium water passes all of them...

Some simple tests of water quality:

Observe how long bubbles remain on the surface of the water before they pop. If they don't pop quickly, do daily 20% water changes until they do pop quickly.

Smell the water. The odor should be very mild and only slightly musty. If the odor is pungent, continue daily 20% water changes until the strong odor subsides.

Place some aquarium water in a clear glass beside a clear glass full of tap water. Observe under good light. The color and clarity should be virtually identical.

Multiple 20% water changes are less stressful on your fish and on the tank's "good" bacteria colonies than fewer large water changes.

Don't base your 20% calculation on the "rated" size of the aquarium. Substrate, plants, ornaments, and fish all displace water. My 135 gallon aquarium, for example, really has only 110 gallons of water in it when it is full.

Calculate 20% by measuring the distance from slightly below the top of the gravel bed up to the water line. Measure down 1 fifth of this distance from the water line and put a piece of Scotch tape on the outside of the aquarium glass so that the top of the tape marks the spot. Siphon the water down until the water line is at the top of the scotch tape and you've removed 20% of the water.

Continue to do daily 20% water changes until your water quality passes all these simple observational tests. Afterward, 20% changes twice a week (as part of a regular cleaning program) should keep your aquarium water in top condition. It will also help keep your fish happy. And, as we discussed in another thread , plants seem to LOVE partial water changes as well!

Best of Luck!

Tim
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Old 01-01-2003, 03:00 PM   #9
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Those are some interesting water quality tests, I didn't know about the bubbles popping one! I have realized my bubbles pop quickly, but never knew what causes that...

-Tim
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Old 01-01-2003, 03:05 PM   #10
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I think that way to much emphasis is put on PH swings.
The " General " rules of PH are just that... General !
PH shock is a phenomenon that happens when a fish from say a 7+ PH value is dropped into say a mid 6 PH water... the fish cannot adapt in seconds but they can adapt over just a few hours.
Most fish will adapt very quickly to PH changes over a short period without side effects or undue stress.

Only the most sensitive of fishes will suffer drastically from gradual and rapid PH changes.
Gradual and Rapid dont sound like they belong in the same sentence together but they can...Breeders will sometimes drastically change PH values in a short period of time ( hours) which " triggers " a breeding pair into action.
Shutting down CO2 is considered a " gradual" change in that it does not immediately change PH values... it takes hours to change.
There is a great publication that I will have to find on PH/Breeding techniques ... it will blow your minds, it breaks every " rule" you ever thought you knew about PH Shock ! :hehe:

What causes Ich usually ? Ammonia.
Ammonia presence stresses fish terribly and also effects the PH values fast !
That is also why many fish from your LFS's are iched... ammonia/low PH water brought on by lack of tank care and lack of stable environments ! If you can smell water there is ammonia undoubtedly. If your LFS smells like a fish market RUN dont walk away from it.

Sad but true... :sad: Now i have to find the publication on PH... or i will be starting off 2003 on a bad note ...:hehe:

Again... sorry if i scared anyone...
the many different ways of dealing with problems is what makes this hobby so interesting !

peace all... BUCK
Happy New Year !
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Old 01-01-2003, 05:37 PM   #11
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handling of Ich. When I had this in my reef tank of course I tried all the treatments without using them in the reef itself.They all failed!! finally I tried Kent marine Zoe vitamins soaked in flake food and in 2 days the ich came off and never showed up again. Otheres have good results with garlic(didnt work for me) I even tried the empty tank for one month starving routine while I chemically treated the fish in quarantine and that didnt work!
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Old 01-01-2003, 06:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Buck
I think that way to much emphasis is put on PH swings....

Now i have to find the publication on PH... or i will be starting off 2003 on a bad note ...:hehe:

Again... sorry if i scared anyone...
the many different ways of dealing with problems is what makes this hobby so interesting !

peace all... BUCK
Happy New Year !
Not to convince me, Buck. I'll admit I was parroting what I have read all over about only making gradual pH changes. I've never tried changing pH rapidly, 'cause I read in so many places not to...

"I grow radishes to keep the Wolverines off my land."

"You ever seen a Wolverine?"

"NO! The radishes keep 'em away!"

Anyway, something ELSE I've read all over the place is that the lower the pH, the less toxic ammonia becomes. I've even read that rapidly lowering pH to the 6.5 range was considered an "emergency treatment" for a fish killing ammonia spike... followed by agressive partial water changes and then slowly letting the pH come back up after the ammonia levels fall to zero.

I agree with you 100% (from personal experience this time) , that ammonia is usually the root cause of ich. If his pH was in the 6-something range, and if all the articles are true, raising the pH would make the ammonia that was probably in his tank more toxic. Thus the recommendation to leave his pH alone.

But the pH recommendations were based on the "I read it somewhere" principle, not on personal experience.

Peace unto you as well...

Tim
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Old 01-01-2003, 06:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by lanstar


But the pH recommendations were based on the "I read it somewhere" principle, not on personal experience.

Peace unto you as well...

Tim
My theory on PH swings was actually from experience. It is what caused my ich breakout. Ich is basically caused by anything stressful that could make the fish susceptible to it, due to a weaker immune system (normally caused by stress). So really it could be anything that causes stress to a fish. Ich is always going to be in your water which means you are just going to have to keep your tank a stress free zone!
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Old 01-01-2003, 10:34 PM   #14
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wow...
I really thought I would be lambasted for that post... :hehe: :hehe: ... but of course its early yet... LOL
New tanks like cvarchers are poison pools and I have one now also since my substrate swap...
PH has never frightened me as its a tool to use ... but ammonia scares the hell outta me... !

Hey lanstar...
Mind if I use your wolverine story sometime ...?
That was awesome... I had to wait for the tears to stop coming out of my eyes before reading the rest because I was laffin so hard... !!

That was beautiful man !! :hehe::hehe:
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Old 01-03-2003, 09:52 PM   #15
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Thats putting it alittle harsh Buck. No kidding aside Although its a fairly new tank the water parameters are really very good.I have no ammonia,no NO3,kH of 4 and PH of 6.2(6.0 when the CO2 is running at night) I just ordered a solenoid from m3 to take care of that problem.OH by the way the ich has disappeared on all fish.I also have cardinal tetras and pristellas ,and they seem healthy swimming around schooling and all eating very well except the cardinal tetras.Just cant seem to get them to eat.Ive had my lossses but I think mainly it was just bad stock percentages from the lfs.Now lets see if the ich returns.
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