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Old 06-14-2007, 02:18 AM   #16
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I've also heard of people procuring glutaraldehyde and simply using that
I think I'd be pretty leery about that one. Glutaraldehyde is pretty wicked stuff. Start dosing the wrong index in the wrong amount and I'd imagine a world of trouble.

Two asides:

I have wondered about the relationship between ich and Excel. I wonder if aquariums in which Excel is dose have a lesser occurrence of ich, as glutaraldehyde is a close relative of formaldehyde and formalin.

Belvedere: The final product of decomposition is water and ammonia. So think of your ultimate physical self as a pool of water prone to a potential outbreak of green water instead of a wisp of gas.
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:33 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by mrbelvedere View Post
I've also heard of people procuring glutaraldehyde and simply using that.
Seachem is evasive about the contents of Excel. Their MSDS clearly states that the only toxic component is glutaraldehyde, but the bottle and their CS reps claim that it also contains some polymer of glutaraldehyde that they call polycyclogultaracetal and that Excel is not simply glutaraldehyde.

Does Excel actually contain any glutaraldehyde? Is their MSDS honest, and is it completely honest? I'm not familiar with the legal implications of failing to list chemicals on an MSDS, but I suspect that they intentionally chose to leave off polycyclogultaracetal to protect their trade secrets and possibly because they'd have to register a new chemical with some agency and go through all kinds of experiments to determine safety, tons of paperwork, etc.

Their web site has an article that discusses how they really don't know how Excel is metabolized by plants. They suggest that it's either metabolized as a photosynthetic intermediate or that the plant degrades it into CO2, which means they have no clue. That article has an illustration of polycycloglutaracetal, although it only shows the carbon backbone and is missing the functional groups. As illustrated, they're implying that Excel is a monomer, but once again, they're being evasive. Trade secrets...

I should ask my dad to pass a sample of Excel through his GC-MS. Not sure how his setup would deal with novel chemicals, though...
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Old 06-14-2007, 02:57 AM   #18
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Is their MSDS honest, and is it completely honest?
Is the Material Safety Data Sheet honest?

Well, I'd say that since OSHA has the ability to strike more fear into our hearts than the IRS, Seachem is probably dead on with their MSDS. Failure to do so would be pretty fool-hardy on their part and probably cost them more in fines than Excel can turn in profit.

Trade secret? Sounds about right to me.....


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Old 06-14-2007, 03:49 AM   #19
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I should ask my dad to pass a sample of Excel through his GC-MS. Not sure how his setup would deal with novel chemicals, though...
I've done GC-MS along with a few other things and from a quick (10-15 minute) look through the spectra, it's a tad bit more complicated than that.

Not sure about the legal implications of trying to figure out what's in it, but I don't plan to be making this and selling it to the public...just a curious mind, that's all.
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Old 06-14-2007, 03:58 AM   #20
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I've done GC-MS along with a few other things and from a quick (10-15 minute) look through the spectra, it's a tad bit more complicated than that.

Not sure about the legal implications of trying to figure out what's in it, but I don't plan to be making this and selling it to the public...just a curious mind, that's all.
Yeah, me too. More than anything I'd like to know how it feeds into the plants' metabolic pathways and how that might differ from algae.
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Momotaro View Post
I think I'd be pretty leery about that one. Glutaraldehyde is pretty wicked stuff. Start dosing the wrong index in the wrong amount and I'd imagine a world of trouble.

Two asides:

I have wondered about the relationship between ich and Excel. I wonder if aquariums in which Excel is dose have a lesser occurrence of ich, as glutaraldehyde is a close relative of formaldehyde and formalin.

Belvedere: The final product of decomposition is water and ammonia. So think of your ultimate physical self as a pool of water prone to a potential outbreak of green water instead of a wisp of gas.
I believe it was Dennis who actually used glutaraldehyde in lieu of Excel. Not sure on the details, but I'm sure if he sees this thread he will chime in.

Not to be morbid, but I will give off a lot of gases, correct?
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Old 06-14-2007, 07:30 PM   #22
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I will give off a lot of gases, correct?
If you're anything like me you will.
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Old 06-14-2007, 10:09 PM   #23
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Yeah, me too. More than anything I'd like to know how it feeds into the plants' metabolic pathways and how that might differ from algae.
Hence why I use 14C to answer such questions.


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Old 06-14-2007, 10:20 PM   #24
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TOm.. seachem said at the AGA if anyone did this they would buy the results... why not sell the info, or at least make it available?
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Old 06-14-2007, 10:31 PM   #25
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Hence why I use 14C to answer such questions.
Huh. I didn't realize you were serious because I didn't realize you had those kind of resources available. Are you a postdoc or professor or something like that? Anyway, care to share what you've learned? I'd be interested in both the methodology and the results, and I suspect that a number of other people around here would be interested too. Once again, I'm mostly just curious. The organic synthetic lab in my kitchen isn't going to be turning out any black-market Excel any time soon (as long as my landlady has anything to say about it.) I've been out of the lab for too long...
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Old 06-15-2007, 01:25 AM   #26
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TOm.. seachem said at the AGA if anyone did this they would buy the results... why not sell the info, or at least make it available?
*I am* working with SeaChem on this project
I'll be rather cryptic as well, but we both have our reasons.
Namely safety related issues.

14C is not used to make the product, just to see trace where the carbon goes and how it interacts.

I am using it to answer the mechanism of action for killing Hydrilla and algae.
I will also use another species that is enhanced by the product.

Yes, I know everything that is in it, but part of the deal is not to disclose it.
So don't ask.

As far as saving cost, it's actually a very very good deal from SeaChem. I can make the stuff myself, but I'm not interested. SeaChem knows that. Some clown will kill themselves, get irrepritable eye damage, etc if they try to make it. It's not baking soda
It can be very toxic stuff, folks have killed fish with it and melted plants when they did not follow the label.

Use as labeled.
That is my advice. Don't breath it either. It'll burn your lungs, eye and mouth out if you get it in there.

Get a 4 liter jug from Big Al's if you are concerned about cost effective amounts. You can also order from Seachem a 20 liter pale etc.

These are good prices for what Seachem has done vs if you tried to make it.
I know, I've looked.

If you wanna be cheaper, use CO2 gas.

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Old 06-15-2007, 01:38 AM   #27
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*I am* working with SeaChem on this project
I look forward to Seachem getting a patent so that you can publish (and discuss) your work.
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Old 12-03-2012, 01:02 AM   #28
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I have been using excel for some time now and really like how it works.
On the other hand it is pretty expensive. Which is why I will probably eventually setup my pressurized co2 system to service my two other tanks. But also kinda expensive at this point.

I am curious if any other company makes a solution like Flourish Excel and offers it cheaper?

I've found several liquid carbon products used with hydroponics but most places do not list the ingredients. I want to be sure they isnt anything harmful added like copper. Actually I didnt find several solutions but this one pops up in my searches alot.
http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=LCG420
Worms Way, Doc's Carbon Grow

I'd appreciate any help I can get on the matter.

Thanks
glutaraldehyde is the ingredient in flourish I use Metricide 28
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:03 AM   #29
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glutaraldehyde is the ingredient in flourish I use Metricide 28
Holy thread revival, Batman!
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Old 12-03-2012, 02:42 AM   #30
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lol, when I saw Rex Grigg at the beginning of this thread I thought he had become active again....then I looked at the date! Holy dustball Batman!
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