The case of the missing minnows! - Page 3
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Old 09-11-2013, 02:20 AM   #31
jagerlite
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Is there any lips or depressions on inside of door creating a space for the fish to hide in?
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Old 09-11-2013, 02:20 AM   #32
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Quote:
For sacrifice more minnows for the reason of "experiment" seems cruel to me.
It's not simply an experiment, nor cruel. It's not like i'm feeding them off for the simple pleasure of it. There is a purpose. I'm trying to find out exactly what's happening to these fish. This will help me better advise my customers on compatibility issues, or other problems and prevent future deaths. This is part of what fish keeping is all about. There are some losses, but that is the unfortunate side of the learning curve. *cue circle of life music*
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:02 AM   #33
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I apologize for using the term experiment, but I felt it was the best way to explain that only moving the minnows to another tank will not necessarily give u an answer. By "testing" each "variable" that is under your control, (bad batch from delivery cannot be controlled) u can conclude a correct answer in a quicker fashion and reduce loses in the future. I felt that using this method u would lose the least amount of fish which in the end is all a store can do in this circumstance. In addition if u gain valuable information regarding ur livestock u will be doing something most other lfs dont do. Give good advice! I can't think of a better reason for an "experiment" then to learn and pass the information learned on to others.
I apologize to any who get offended by the use of the word, "experiment," but get over it. Its not like these fish are being brought in to be killed outright. How is this any different from people who put shrimp in a betta tank to find out the personality of a betta. It isn't.
I look forward to hearing what happens.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:04 AM   #34
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but that plenty have already been sacrificed for weeks. If you are ruling out them just being bad stock or dying due to stress etc and being scavaged, you have already figured out something in that tank is doing something to them.

If shrimp are put with betta to determine betta's temperament and the shrimp are all eaten etc you don't continue to try to get him shrimp as tank-mates each week.

If others have already presented info saying some of the members of that tank are known to eat other types of fish similar to your minnows, and your minnows have disappeared so often from being put in tank with those other fish, why not find another arrangement of what to do with the minnows. Unless you plan to put a black light on the tank and camp out with them and observe. A webcam and laptop would not be hard to hook up and leave on recording to private to youtube or such. It would allow you to view it later and actually see what happens to them.

The information is already available since the trials and experiments have already been done. There is no need to reinvent the wheel - People here have even saved you on some of the research and let you know some of the other inhabitants have been known to eat smaller fish. The goal now should be where to properly safely house the minnows and if no place is available then you are carrying too many species.

Last edited by Kat12; 09-11-2013 at 04:17 AM.. Reason: added
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Old 09-11-2013, 08:29 PM   #35
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but that plenty have already been sacrificed for weeks.
Only 2 previous shipments have been "sacrificed" as you say. The first time it happened I figured they'd all been sold when I wasn't paying attention. The second time it happened with a larger number of fish I questioned it and found out they weren't being sold. That is when I posted on the forum.

Quote:
others have already presented info saying some of the members of that tank are known to eat other types of fish similar to your minnows
Yes they have. However if you read back through some of the previous posts there are some of those "similar fish" living in harmony with the rest of the tank and have been for weeks if not months. Of course I'd question why the loaches would eat the minnows and not the danios that are the exact same size, and in some instances smaller.

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why not find another arrangement of what to do with the minnows.
I AM finding another arrangement for the minnows. But I'm also trying to get a positive answer on whats going on. I didn't have a proper answer one way or the other as to what was going on.

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A webcam and laptop would not be hard to hook up and leave on recording to private to youtube or such.
I don't have such equipment at my disposal. Once again I mentioned earlier that recording the tank would not be possible overnight!

Quote:
The information is already available since the trials and experiments have already been done.
Show me the proof. I searched both the forum and the internet in general to find a decent answer and there was conflicting information everywhere. Forgive me if I don't believe everything I read or see.

I appreciate that you are trying to have the best interest of the fish at heart Kat12, but it seems to me like you're upset over something you shouldn't be. I'm not mindlessly killing fish for the enjoyment of it. I'm doing everything in my power to identify the problem and find out what EXACTLY is going on, and prevent any more fish from dying.

Despite the fact that others have said one thing or another there are far too many variables for one answer to be 100% accurate in EVERY situation. I started this thread to get constructive and helpful suggestions. Perhaps some input from people how have previously had similar experiences.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:18 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kal_daka87 View Post
Only 2 previous shipments have been "sacrificed" as you say. The first time it happened I figured they'd all been sold when I wasn't paying attention. The second time it happened with a larger number of fish I questioned it and found out they weren't being sold. That is when I posted on the forum.

You also have said you are always first in and first out, but also have implied you don't work all the days the store is open and are not the owner etc.

If it was possible for them to have sold, it could also be possible that others removed the dead fish without properly documenting and without letting you know.

Do you have a need to continue to get minnows? In the past couple weeks when they have disappeared has anyone asked for some? Maybe a minnow break would not harm the store.
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Old 09-11-2013, 09:19 PM   #37
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I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it's like a good mystery novel haha. I hope we find out what happened to the minnows soon! And yes, I agree its better to try to solve the problem rather than go for an easy fix since the OP doesn't want this happening to other stock in the future.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:28 PM   #38
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You also have said you are always first in and first out, but also have implied you don't work all the days the store is open and are not the owner etc.

If it was possible for them to have sold, it could also be possible that others removed the dead fish without properly documenting and without letting you know.

Do you have a need to continue to get minnows? In the past couple weeks when they have disappeared has anyone asked for some? Maybe a minnow break would not harm the store.
I get the feeling you're not reading entire posts or you're just skimming through them and not fully comprehending. I'm not ALWAYS the first in and first out at the store. I've been talking about one 12 hour period of time, on one day of the week. Very specific time frame. Here's how it works....

1. Fish shipment arrives at some point in the afternoon during my evening shift.
2. I put fish in their tanks after floating the bags for approx 5-10 min.
3. Store closes at 9pm all other staff leaves.
4. As part of the end of my shift I check all animals in store are secure, including fish. All minnows are present and comfortable in tank.
5. I leave store and lock up behind me.
6. I go home and go to bed cus I have to be back at the store at 8:30am the next day.
7. 8:30 the next day, I unlock doors, turn on all lights and check animals. Minnows are gone.

So to summarize in case you didn't get it. The minnows disappeared during a single 12 hour period, overnight, when the store was locked and alarmed, and no one else was around.

And yes I have to continue to get minnows. They are an excellent beginner fish, hardy, and no I don't get people that ask specifically for them. However most people don't shop for specific fish. They just go in looking and want something "pretty" It's my job to make sure they have a good selection and that they choose the right fish for their tank and abilities.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:50 PM   #39
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For those of you that have been following for curiosities sake I did finally figure it out today.

Not wanting to risk a bunch of the minnows, I only added 3 to the tank with the loaches. The rest I put safely in a tank with guppies. For 2 hours everything was fine, altho there was a bit of chasing going on, nothing major, and it was mostly the loaches chasing one another. I'm not sure what triggered it but at about the 2hr 15 min mark the loaches started chasing the minnows like crazy. Unfortunately they got 1. As soon as I saw this I moved the other 2 in with the rest of the group and the guppies.

So it was definitely the blue red tail botia loaches that killed off the group of 24 that "disappeared". I suspect the group of 24 lasted as long as they did (seemingly comfortable and safe when I closed) simply because of the large quantity of them. Once numbers are reduced there's no way for a single fish to hide.

One other thing I figured out is how a fish with such a tiny mouth could eat something as large as the minnows, comparatively. It was literally a feeding frenzy akin to piranha. Lots of tiny mouths picking at a single prey item, they completely devoured it.

However I still have absolutely no idea why they would go after the minnows and leave the danios alone. Or for that matter how they could have eaten so many in 12 hours and not show any sign of having that large of a meal.

So from now on, no more loaches. Well at least not this particular species. It's too much of an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:22 PM   #40
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The danios are pretty quick. Could have been the reason. Well, at least u can advise from now on customers who are buying the loaches to be careful with minnows. Lesson learned. Great to intervene quickly.
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Old 09-12-2013, 12:39 AM   #41
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Looks like this mystery

( _)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

is history.

yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh

Seriously though, awesome thread.

I was on the edge of my seat for days
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:48 PM   #42
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I remembered this thread and wanted to find out what happened. I'm glad you figured it out. Loaches are awesome, they can hang with much larger and aggressive fish in tanks and hold their own and they are fun to watch. At least now you will know more about the best placement for them and perhaps it was their numbers or minnows' behavior.... they seem to act much more skittish than danios, so that may have doomed them. I have heard some behavior is learned with fish, that one species can display different types of aggression/behavior based on experience. The loaches worked together and I'm sure any new ones quickly caught on to the hunting behavior. In smaller groups in established tanks there may not be that kind of situation so it's never an issue. I would say that maybe more artificial plants and places to hide would be good, I get that they are for sale and you want them to be seen... perhaps showing off some of the rocks or tank decorations in tanks with the skittish species would offer you an upselling opportunity and give those fish a little more security. They'd still be seen, but would likely feel better and act better and may not become a midnight snack. Not sure anything could have stopped your pack of loaches in this instance, but maybe for future tank mates more decoration/plants would help? I really enjoyed reading about the loaches and am glad you kept up with the posts and let us know what was happening.

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Old 10-10-2013, 04:49 PM   #43
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This was a fantastic thread. It made for some great reading. I think some of the posters let their emotions run a bit too far, and while I'm sure that no one wants or enjoys the death of livestock, sometimes the only way to be sure a situation is trial and error. To suggest the OP had any other motive than the well being of livestock would be ludicrous.

Anyway, good to know that Botia can actually be very predatory, given their mouth shapes it seems a little contradictory but when one takes into context their very social group structure, it appears likely that they prefer larger groups for more than the safety in numbers and general companionship.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #44
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Why don't you just check the filter for the corpses or cover the intake with something fine for the night and see if it solves it. I've have perfectly healthy danios get sucked up filters because they like to hang around the current and were small. They swam through the cover the filter came with.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:27 PM   #45
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OCTOPUS in a tank accross the way is escaping and eating them--My guess!
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