Kill your stubborn BBA - Page 2
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Algae


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-02-2013, 07:07 AM   #16
FlyingHellFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
FlyingHellFish's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,021
Default

Interesting, thanks for the idea. I think I going to reduce my P04 and see what happens. I could never get rid of BBA, only could control it by manual cleaning.
__________________
FlyingHellFish is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-02-2013, 07:17 AM   #17
norbot
Planted Member
 
norbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Boise
Posts: 225
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwavepc.com View Post
this is just me telling people what worked for me after all else failed.
Oh hey that's cool, there's no problem.. I thought you wanted discussion about it, and you're right you didn't say phosphates cause algae, it was just the only conclusion I could draw.

It's like I said, if it works I'll try it , I don't care a whole lot about theory as long as the plants grow and algae doesn't, even though I do find it more interesting the more I know about it.

Even though you didn't want discussion about science in your thread, I learned alot from the links and posts, so thank you for posting.

I am interested in seeing how it works for you as time goes by, so if you feel like it, please keep us updated. And forgive me for assuming you were saying "phosphate cause algae"

btw.. what's "a" welcome and why is it mine?.........jk
__________________
Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand
—KV



20g journal
29g journal
55g journal
norbot is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2013, 01:32 PM   #18
houseofcards
Planted Tank Guru
 
houseofcards's Avatar
 
PTrader: (55/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 2,612
Default

The problem with threads like this and I'm not picking on the OP, but everyone with BBA will think this is a good fix for them. It's possible something is going on in your tank that this is having a positive effect on the situation. Same goes with co2, it's not always a fix for BBA and so many here that is the first thing they recommend increasing even before seeing the affected tank. I don't know but for some reason I see a rep from Seachem reading this thread and ROTFL.

Last edited by houseofcards; 09-02-2013 at 04:46 PM.. Reason: add
houseofcards is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2013, 03:21 PM   #19
BruceF
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Centennial,Co
Posts: 1,343
Default

+100% house............
BruceF is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2013, 07:45 PM   #20
Mizuhuman
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Mizuhuman's Avatar
 
PTrader: (6/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 416
Default

Interesting. I've been battling bba for a year in my 75g. I'm willing to try anything to get rid of it.
Mizuhuman is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-02-2013, 09:42 PM   #21
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (259/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwavepc.com View Post
lol... this wasn't a post to discuss "science" behind your theories, this is just me telling people what worked for me after all else failed.
And this was just me telling folks the idea has been on the web, for like nearly 20 years now.
I even cited the link:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/

Did you even bother to read it?


Quote:
If your info was so well known I don't think you would have to so valiantly defend it.
Whether the information is known or not does not in any way, discredit it.
I offer support for my statements.

EI and many of the articles I have written have been read and are easily accessible on line. Excess PO4 is a good myth and like all good myths, it is hard to kill.

Quote:
I got the idea from a guy who makes a living with fish and plants, and has been doing planted tanks for 20 or so years.
Well, I have curiously also have same credits
It is now a pee contest? Is this how you "valiantly" defend your position?

I offered clear examples that falsify this claim, many of the people on TPT have been to my home, seen my tanks over many years. You have not addressed how my tanks and those of many others do quite well and lack algae(BBA or others) at very high PO4 values.

Simple question, one which you have avoided. Perhaps you should ask yourself the question. Investigate, see if you can learn more. This path will make you a better aquatic gardener.

Quote:
you shouldn't make a blanket hypothesis when you don't know all the info. for example my tank might have 10x the amount of po4 your tank does, therefore causing the bba to thrive in my tank.
Your tank has 100 ppm PO4?
I'm extremely safe in my position when I made such statements.
I've demonstrated 1000X of times that excess PO4 cannot be a cause of algae independent of other factors.

If you have dependencies, well, then, it's a poorly designed test.
You cannot say much about why you had those results. There are 1001 ways to mess something up.

All it takes is for a few people to show a nicely done planted tank without algae issues and high PO4 to falsify your claim.

My position is one of falsification, yours is not. My methods are rather clear in the fact I do not have dependent factors. Yours MUST have dependencies.
If that is not true, then "magic" must be invoked for my tanks to exist.

In order to find the cause of something, you need to falsify each likely hypothesis, you narrow the choices down by falsifying each tested hypothesis. When you are left with 1-2 etc, then you go back and see if you can confirm it. You still cannot ever be 100% certain as to cause, but can be certain about falsification.


Quote:
plants don't need massive amounts of po4 and I seriously doubt the phos guard is removing 100% of it from the tank or my plants would be dying after a few weeks, which is exactly the opposite of what's happening.
So did you even bother to test to confirm the PO4 is gone or at some low residual or is it a guess? I'm not so confident as to debate such a topic without covering my bases. I'm not so sure we can say the same for your methods.

Absolute removal is one issue, but a low limiting level does not imply 100% removal from the water column, it only suggest that one nutrient is now more limiting than another. So plant demand for CO2 drops because the most limiting factor is now PO4.

Liebigs law accurately predicts this, this is not a "causal" theory, this is more than a strong Science based theory, it's a law.

If you added more CO2, then added the PO4 back, then you would see that this is true. Whether you believe me is not my point, the evidence is there and you owe it to yourself to investigate that this is the case.

Maybe I've been lying to everyone for 20 years?
Not likely.

Quote:
Noone has all the anwsers and you really should be less critical and negative about things Tom, makes you look like an old grouch.
Hehe, really? Name calling are we? I attack the topic, not the person.
An idea should stand on it's own merits, not because someone is a nice guy. Used car salesmen are nice guys, but we do not believe everything they say either.

Prove what I say is true, to yourself.
Then you will know.
Right now, you don't.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 04:05 AM   #22
FlyingHellFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
FlyingHellFish's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
And this was just me telling folks the idea has been on the web, for like nearly 20 years now.
I even cited the link:
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/

Did you even bother to read it?
Did they ever figure out why reducing the phosphate gave them less algae? I read through it quickly and one of the case studies claim low algae by having P as the limiting factor.

There is a lot of conflicting information on that site, an article says to keep Nitrate and Phosphate as low as possible. I'm confused.
__________________
FlyingHellFish is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 05:12 AM   #23
ua hua
Planted Tank Guru
 
ua hua's Avatar
 
PTrader: (51/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 2,408
Default

What about the fact that phosphate is always measured as PO4 but when it's dissolved in water as dihydrogen phosphate H2PO4 1- and as as hydrogen phosphate HPO 4 2 -. The equilibrium is completely pH dependent. For example a pH of 7.2 it would be 1:1 but at a pH of 6.2 it's 10:1.

What one person might think is a acceptable level of phosphate might be a excessive amount in another tank with different pH levels?

Reading through some of this stuff makes my brain hurt but I try the best that I can to understand without feeling like I'm back in school.
__________________
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ua hua's 90 gal. high tech
ua hua's 5,000 gal. water garden

Last edited by ua hua; 09-03-2013 at 04:36 PM.. Reason: ..?
ua hua is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 05:49 AM   #24
FlyingHellFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
FlyingHellFish's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,021
Default

^ That the first time I ever heard of this, interesting point.

Are you saying that the lower the PH value, the higher the concentration or availability is to plants?
__________________
FlyingHellFish is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 05:52 AM   #25
ua hua
Planted Tank Guru
 
ua hua's Avatar
 
PTrader: (51/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 2,408
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingHellFish View Post
^ That the first time I ever heard of this, interesting point.

Are you saying that the lower the PH value, the higher the concentration or availability is to plants?
Take a look at those two links I posted. You will have to translate from German but interesting info nonetheless.
__________________
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ua hua's 90 gal. high tech
ua hua's 5,000 gal. water garden
ua hua is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 05:58 AM   #26
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,769
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

ok lets see if i understand this correctly, correct me if am wrong, We always give the measured phosphate as PO4, even though the dissolved in the aquarium water as dihydrogen phosphate, H 2 PO4 1 -. Than hydrogen phosphate and HPO4 2 - present At pH 7.2, the ratio of 1:1, at pH 6.2 it is 10: 1, at pH 8.2 it is 1:10, i have Ph of 6.0 and it could go down to 5.0 during co2, i use 100% Ro water and 0 KH. that mean adding 1ppm of Po4 is actually 10ppm of phosphors?

the goggle translation isn't translating things very well.
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 06:27 AM   #27
brainwavepc.com
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
brainwavepc.com's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Posts: 499
Default

Yes Tom I measured the phos after having the stuff in there for a few days and the test showed no detectable phosphate, with this test kit.

http://www.petco.com/product/112545/...-Test-Kit.aspx

nothing in my tank has changed in the past three months and the algae was growing like crazy until I added the phos guard. despite what should be happening, this works for me.


regardless of the opinions in this thread, this works for me when nothing else did, and hopefully helps someone else out down the road. I will be removing the phos guard once all the visible bba is gone and will post my results.
brainwavepc.com is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 06:36 AM   #28
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,769
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

i cannot 100% confirm that reducing PO4 would solve this algae issue, but let me share something with you guys, i will only share the results i found during my experiments. i was dosing 1ppm of Po4 3x week and i was seeing BBA growing all over the tank, first i thought it was co2, tried everything to get rid of it but nothing happened, for last couple of weeks i reduced the po4 dose to 0.5ppm 3x week and BBA was going away slowly. now on the other hand when i had very fast growing stem plants i was dosing the 1ppm of po4 3x week without seeing any BBA or any other algae. i would also like to mention that i use aqua soil which absorb high amount of po4, plant can store po4 as well, we can dose small amount of PO4 everyday which can be quickly absorbed by plants so nothing stays behind. dosing more than plants could absorb simply stays in water and algae will use it or substrate like aqua soil will absorb it. i would also like to talk about my fert recipe in my signature, when someone else used it who doesn't use aqua soil they had BBA issue, while i used Aqua soil and i did not see any BBA using the same fert. my last test confirmed that aqua soil and plants can absorb 0.5 -1ppm of po4 per day, but this test does not guarantee anything, simply because i don't know weather aqua soil is absorbing more po4 or plants are.

on the other hand my brother tank is full of BBA, he doesn't dose anymore fert and week later BBA is less but at the same time plant growth is reduced. i would also like to mention when ever he trimmed the plants BBA was exploding, when you trim the plants, plant can release PO4 back into the water if i understand this correctly. if anyone is interested i can do a test on BBA and post my final results and then for sure we will know if BBA is caused by excess PO4.

if anyone is interested reading my GDA algae thread, they might find it intersing, here is the link: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...505&highlight=

here is a video of tank with 3ppm of po4 per week:
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 06:38 AM   #29
OVT
Carpe Diem
 
OVT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (142/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: SF East Bay Area
Posts: 5,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
I don't know but for some reason I see a rep from Seachem reading this thread and ROTFL.
I'd pay to see that on YouTube

v2
__________________
Courtesy * Integrity * Perseverance * Indominable Spirit * and Self Control
Tenets of TKD
OVT is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 06:39 AM   #30
FlyingHellFish
Planted Tank Guru
 
FlyingHellFish's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,021
Default

@ happi

That would be great, how would the test be set up?

How did you contribute the AquaSoil to absorbing the P and not the plants?
__________________
FlyingHellFish is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012