Kill your stubborn BBA
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Algae


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-01-2013, 06:16 AM   #1
brainwavepc.com
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
brainwavepc.com's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Posts: 499
Default

Kill your stubborn BBA


I've tried everything I could find to kill bba. changed lights and photo period, added more or less co2, h2o2, excel, you name it. my 125g was trashed with bba, this fixed it in less than two weeks at double the amount per instructions, with no effect on plants.

http://www.seachem.com/Products/prod...PhosGuard.html

your welcome
brainwavepc.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-01-2013, 07:53 AM   #2
OVT
Carpe Diem
 
OVT's Avatar
 
PTrader: (142/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: SF East Bay Area
Posts: 5,085
Default

Interesting and thank you.

Do you know what levels of phosphate and silicate you had before and after? Did BBA died off or you removed it by hand and it has not come back?

In short, more details would be much appreciated.

v2
__________________
Courtesy * Integrity * Perseverance * Indominable Spirit * and Self Control
Tenets of TKD
OVT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 09:54 AM   #3
xxshabsxx
Destroyer of Algae
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sydney, AUstralia
Posts: 38
Default

Yes, when I went into the local aquarium shop the other day to re-plant my tank (to which I also had a terrible BBA prloblem, fixed now). The owner of the shop told me about the PhosGuard that he uses on his saltwater tanks. BBA apparently thrives (or needs) Phosphate to survive, and so removing that in the tank kills off the BBA entirely. The reason why a lot of people don't use this method (or so he said) is that many people think that plants needs phosphates to live, or live better, but infact phosphates almost have no corrolation with the growth of plants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I was told yesterday. And it seems you've also had the same success.
xxshabsxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 11:28 AM   #4
jpappy789
Wannabe Guru
 
jpappy789's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Gainesville, FL
Posts: 1,045
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxshabsxx View Post
Yes, when I went into the local aquarium shop the other day to re-plant my tank (to which I also had a terrible BBA prloblem, fixed now). The owner of the shop told me about the PhosGuard that he uses on his saltwater tanks. BBA apparently thrives (or needs) Phosphate to survive, and so removing that in the tank kills off the BBA entirely. The reason why a lot of people don't use this method (or so he said) is that many people think that plants needs phosphates to live, or live better, but infact phosphates almost have no corrolation with the growth of plants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I was told yesterday. And it seems you've also had the same success.
Say what?! You cannot just find elemental P floating around...it's mainly found in the phosphate form in soils and water. ATP, DNA/RNA...just a few important biomolecules that NEED phosphorus to be assembled.
__________________
jpappy789 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 12:50 PM   #5
xxshabsxx
Destroyer of Algae
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Sydney, AUstralia
Posts: 38
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpappy789 View Post
Say what?! You cannot just find elemental P floating around...it's mainly found in the phosphate form in soils and water. ATP, DNA/RNA...just a few important biomolecules that NEED phosphorus to be assembled.
No, I know that phosphate in it's elemental state isn't just floating around. As you said, various proteins that contain phosphate are omnipresent in a fishtank and are used by various organisms to produce biomolecules.

I don't understand everything that the man told me. But from what I could make out, he said that phosphates aren't as important as people think in aquariums, and although removing it all entirely would be detrimental to the plants and fish, having lower levels than what was previously recommended both keeps algae at bay and your aquarium happy...

Although, that's what he was saying, and he could be crazy.
xxshabsxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 02:10 PM   #6
ua hua
Planted Tank Guru
 
ua hua's Avatar
 
PTrader: (47/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 2,286
Default

This is interesting to me because I have some of this left over from my reefing days and I did use it on my planted tank about 6 years ago or so and I never had any BBA back then but then I was concerned about it removing all of the phosphate in my tank so quit using it. I have had BBA several times since then and my co2 is running as much as possible without killing fish so I might try this again to see the results. I'm sure you will get many people saying that you don't want to remove all the phosphates but we will have to see.
__________________
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ua hua's 90 gal. high tech
ua hua's 5,000 gal. water garden
ua hua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 07:03 PM   #7
brainwavepc.com
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
brainwavepc.com's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Posts: 499
Default

I do not know the levels beforehand. but I can say the bba was growing on glass and everything else and the only thing I changed in the past month was adding the phos guard

it's a dirted tank, mts from plain cheap topsoil. before trying this I manually removed bba almost daily and it grew back fast. after adding the phos guard I removed some of it but it was still completely covering all my wood and rocks. it's falling off by itself now and my plans are still growing super fast.

so far I've changed the phos guard once after a week and and a half. the bba is disappearing at a pretty quick rate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OVT View Post
Interesting and thank you.

Do you know what levels of phosphate and silicate you had before and after? Did BBA died off or you removed it by hand and it has not come back?

In short, more details would be much appreciated.

v2
I just went and looked and my decimated micro sword that amost all died off because of the bba has put out three new sprouts, woohoo!

Last edited by Darkblade48; 09-01-2013 at 10:43 PM.. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
brainwavepc.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 07:43 PM   #8
crice8
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (30/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 508
Default

Just ordered some! We shall see if it gets rid of this pesky BBA!
crice8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 08:08 PM   #9
norbot
Planted Member
 
norbot's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Boise
Posts: 225
Default

Wow, back to the old "phosphate causes algae" idea? I surely can't comment on what exactly initiates algae to grow, I can say I've been dumping lots of phosphate in my tanks without issue for 8 months.

If phosguard removes the bba, then that seems like the end of discussion for me and I will go buy some phosguard.

As a guess, I wonder if the difference in the type of phosphate has something to do with it? Please see here and here

Again, not doubting you, but I am skeptical. NPK has long been understood to be crucial for plants, phosphorus is an essential element plants need to grow
__________________
Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand
—KV



20g journal
29g journal
55g journal

Last edited by norbot; 09-01-2013 at 08:21 PM.. Reason: addlink
norbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2013, 08:33 PM   #10
Jeff5614
Planted Tank Guru
 
Jeff5614's Avatar
 
PTrader: (52/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 2,686
Default

So, by removing phosphorous from your aquarium you've greatly reduced the ability of your plants to utilize carbon and nitrogen. Does the elimination of P also cause BBA not to be able to use carbon and nitrogen? We know that plants are able to store nutrients and then draw on those stores when they're no longer available in the environment. Does algae store nutrients or does it die back quickly when there are no nutrients available? Would plants continue to flourish for a while until their store of nutrients are exhausted and then begin to decline while algae would decline much faster?

I've completely stopped dosing my tank in the past and the tank looked great for 3 weeks. The small amount of nuisance algae completely died off after a week or so and everything seemed fine then plants start to yellow, lose leaves and wither. You're living on borrowed time .

Here's a good discussion on algae and nutrients.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/w...se-algae.3217/

Last edited by Jeff5614; 09-01-2013 at 08:44 PM.. Reason: typo
Jeff5614 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 04:17 AM   #11
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,240
Default

Here we go again.

17 years, that's how long we have known on line within the web community that PO4 (elevated levels) do not induce BBA or any number of algae.

This is not a question, this is a fact.
If you use basic logic, I'm talking the exact same type used in Science, we should be able to add PO4 and get BBA(or any algae that many claim).

You made the hypothesis, now try and test this.

There are many potential causes.
But.......all it takes are few cases where we KNOW we add plenty of PO4 and do not get BBA, that this hypothesis is falsified.

I really wish history would not repeat itself and that each new cohort of planted hobbyists seems to have to go through this all over again and again ad aduseum.

If the hypothesis is true, then where is my BBA?


I dose 10 ppm a week and feed fish.
I sell gobs of Starougyne, Red pantanal, mini butterfly, Rare Cryptds, a mix of both slow and fast growers. Check out the feedback if you have even a little doubt. So that's one aspect totally falsified multiple times for going on 2 decades.

So what is going on then?
Same deal as way back then when Kevin and Paul suggested it.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertil...rs-conlin.html

The hobby is about growing plants, not limiting algae.
Never was about limiting algae, it's still not.

Liebig's law applies:

What you have done however is limit the plant growth itself.
Instead of CO2 being the MOST limiting factor, now you have switched to PO4 being the MOST limiting factor.

A decent image of the concept:

http://goose.ycp.edu/~kkleiner/ecolo...liebigslaw.jpg

Now if you could/can manage CO2 correctly, and have enough control with CO2, then BBA is not an issue. I've never once seen otherwise. Not in some 20 years.

So when you limit PO4, now your CO2 issue went away(and thus the BBA goes away, as if by magic? I think not, I have always linked BBA to the poorly managed CO2 levels(bobbing between say 5-15 ppm etc for some/all of the lighting period).

This also confirms that CO2 is likely the inducer of BBA. There may be other factors involved with BBA, but I;'ve not seen any that are testable other than CO2.

You never limited BBA with PO4 remover, that much is clear. You reduced the demand for CO2 by the plants. Plants can tolerate PO4 limitation much better than they can CO2 limitation.

So it goes back to plant growth and Liebig.
You will not escape that.

To have a good understanding and horticultural ability, good usage of CO2 is key. Now if you cannot use CO2 well, too impatient, not enough/too much current, have poor equipment, assume test kits are correct and do not pay more attention to the plants, algae and fish properly, well..........then you might need a crutch like PO4 limitation.

It works but fails to grow plants really well and fails to teach the hobbyists how to manage CO2 correctly.

Now if you also add a lot of light, then you'd expect you'd also require more CO2, and many folks seem to have that vs low light, good CO2 and ferts.

This article discusses light and CO2 demand independent of nutrients:
http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-ab...and-light.aspx

1 st thing they discuss: Liebig, go figure.

There are thousands of aquariums with non limiting PO4 out there that are free of BBA, a number of folks going "me too" does not suggest much other than poor CO2 management frankly. Sounds harsh? It should. It was clearly shown to be FALSE decades ago. We can never know with absolution what causes something(say BBA), but we can say what something is not.

Explain why my tanks do not have BBA.
You cannot with that hypothesis.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 04:20 AM   #12
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff5614 View Post
So, by removing phosphorous from your aquarium you've greatly reduced the ability of your plants to utilize carbon and nitrogen. Does the elimination of P also cause BBA not to be able to use carbon and nitrogen? We know that plants are able to store nutrients and then draw on those stores when they're no longer available in the environment. Does algae store nutrients or does it die back quickly when there are no nutrients available? Would plants continue to flourish for a while until their store of nutrients are exhausted and then begin to decline while algae would decline much faster?

I've completely stopped dosing my tank in the past and the tank looked great for 3 weeks. The small amount of nuisance algae completely died off after a week or so and everything seemed fine then plants start to yellow, lose leaves and wither. You're living on borrowed time .

Here's a good discussion on algae and nutrients.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/w...se-algae.3217/
If you have a source of PO4 in the sediment, then this can be alright, particularly if the sediment is new, and has ample N still, older sediments still possess all the other nutrients(likely for 5-10 years or so, maybe more) just lacks N over time.

But the algae are not limited in any cases.
This is all about Liebig's law and plant demand.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 05:10 AM   #13
ua hua
Planted Tank Guru
 
ua hua's Avatar
 
PTrader: (47/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 2,286
Default

Here's another read on this topic, you will have to translate from German:

http://www.deters-ing.de/Gastbeitraege/Phosphat1.htm


http://www.altwasser-aquarium.de/bei...itrag_gerd.php
__________________
All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves. Bill Hicks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ua hua's 90 gal. high tech
ua hua's 5,000 gal. water garden
ua hua is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 05:55 AM   #14
brainwavepc.com
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
brainwavepc.com's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Posts: 499
Default

lol... this wasn't a post to discuss "science" behind your theories, this is just me telling people what worked for me after all else failed.

If your info was so well known I don't think you would have to so valiantly defend it.

I got the idea from a guy who makes a living with fish and plants, and has been doing planted tanks for 20 or so years.

you shouldn't make a blanket hypothesis when you don't know all the info. for example my tank might have 10x the amount of po4 your tank does, therefore causing the bba to thrive in my tank. plants don't need massive amounts of po4 and I seriously doubt the phos guard is removing 100% of it from the tank or my plants would be dying after a few weeks, which is exactly the opposite of what's happening.

Noone has all the anwsers and you really should be less critical and negative about things Tom, makes you look like an old grouch.
brainwavepc.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2013, 05:58 AM   #15
brainwavepc.com
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
brainwavepc.com's Avatar
 
PTrader: (14/100%)
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Beaverton Oregon
Posts: 499
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbot View Post
Wow, back to the old "phosphate causes algae" idea? I surely can't comment on what exactly initiates algae to grow, I can say I've been dumping lots of phosphate in my tanks without issue for 8 months.

If phosguard removes the bba, then that seems like the end of discussion for me and I will go buy some phosguard.

As a guess, I wonder if the difference in the type of phosphate has something to do with it? Please see here and here

Again, not doubting you, but I am skeptical. NPK has long been understood to be crucial for plants, phosphorus is an essential element plants need to grow
I never said phosphate causes algae... just the abundance of it is allowing it to thrive in my tank. obviously reducing po4 levels is working, so what's the problem.
brainwavepc.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012