Need some advice please - Page 2
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > General Planted Tank Forums > General Planted Tank Discussion


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-29-2013, 10:36 PM   #16
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Av3ngeme,

I would make a 'guess' that you're right in saying co2 is killing your fish, but based on my exhaustive lurking on this forum, I would suggest that it's not the ph. Yes, your ph swings, that's fine. My ph has swung from 7s to 6s as I gas and degas. However, co2 itself kills. It'll even kill you/me and all other non plant based oxygen breathing life. You're gassing for 15 hours. Since that's killing your fish, clearly that's too much. You started gassing for 6 hours and that works. You never mentioned if your ph is still swinging. If you're getting a good amount in, I'm inclined to say that it still swings. What did your drop checkers show when you gassed for 15 hours? What does it show when you gassed for 6?

Honestly I haven't checked, I was pretty peeved to put it politely and just stopped checking and was more concerned with the fish so that's what I was paying attention too, I've done a check and I'll see how much it swings in 6 hours and get back to you. My thought was not so much the co2 as the fish at no point were gasping or close to the surface trying to get oxygen so that's why I was leaning towards the pH swing being the culprit.

Your fish is also probably suffocating because your O2 levels may be low. You might need to search on co2/o2 relations, or co2 toxicity. There's something there but I'll leave that one for the experts to answer. Try this thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...=141206&page=5

I pretty much replied to this above, the fish at no point were going to the surface or showing any signs of distress or oxygen deprivation so I dunno...

I'll try to find more for you but many have suggested that they can push the 30ppm co2 envelope further when they introduce extra O2 into the system. Usually this is done by surface agitation. What do you use to circulate the water and break up the surface?
Here's a link that suggest extra aeration will stabilize your CO2 from going beyond a lethal point.
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/c...ed-tank.26559/

I'm using the HOB and an air pump to break surface tension. So there should now be plenty of aeration and surface agitation.

Did you ever notice a surface film building up when you used to gas for 15 hours? There's also readings that suggest a surface film building on the water will prevent proper co2/o2 exchange and thus causing things to go awry. Did your drop checker get progressively more green to yellow the following day when you did your 15 hour injections?
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=125368

There was at no point ever film on the top, due too the HOB moving the water. I have seen what your referring to in a friends Beta bowl though. The drop checker went to green, and than back to blue by the next morning....however I was using the Red Sea drop checker and I've since found that it's a POS and purchased a Fluval with the right Dk4 solution and get much more accurate readings

As for me, I inject co2 on a timer cycle close to my light cycle. I gas for 8 hours. My ph swings pretty vastly. I completely degas at night because I run an HOB to break up the surface film and introduce more o2 into the system. You'll find that some people run an aerator for this very purpose. Some people don't bother. They probably have enough surface agitation from their various filtration systems or koralia units or so on.

I can't run my co2 on a timer right now as the only electric item in the system is the Red Sea reactor http://www.emporioaquatico.com.br/me...eactor_500.png

Sorry that you lost your fish to co2. You have a safe point right now. Seems to be 6 hours. Nightspell is suggesting that you increase it slowly. There's some results from people who introduce their livestock to co2 slowly and sort of build their tolerance. I've not looked into this one but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. I'll echo the wisdom of the many before me in suggesting that you do it only on days when you're home. Perhaps put the co2 on a timer and add a half hour to an hour and watch your fish closely -- especially towards the end of the injection cycle to see how much you can push it. Add in some aeration somehow and see if you can push it even further. There's a balance to be obtained but only you'll know what that is in your tank. Hang in there. Your cause lies in the co2. The ph only indicates that the co2 was there.

I checked my pH again, 2 hours after I turned on the Co2 and it went from approximately 7.5 to 6.9 in that time.

I'm linking to a video I just took so you can see the surface agitation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...t=HL1377815754

Last edited by av3ngeme; 08-30-2013 at 12:03 AM.. Reason: more info
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 08-30-2013, 05:59 AM   #17
ipkiss
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 324
Default

Yea, I'll have to give you that that surface is pretty nicely agitated and no surface film. That should've given decent aeration so you seem to have that aspect covered. If you want even more, you can lower the water level and let the hob splash a bit more. Unfortunately, it'll be more noisy. However, you also just disproved your ph swing theory by your ph check. 2 hours and you're into 6.9. I wonder what you get by the time you shut it off?

As promised, I found another link about co2/o2 relations and how they affect fish. This thread is pretty intensive. O2/CO2 rant May be more than you ever cared to know!

At this point, if you still decide to stick with more co2, all I can advise will echo Nightspell's advice. Use an abundance of caution and increase slowly. Perhaps time it a tad more carefully on a weekend when you have time to observe the fish. I'll agree it's definitely tough to time it accurately without a timer. It seems like that's a pretty efficient little reactor you have to get your water that saturated with co2. If you can't turn off the co2 and are not concerned with waste, were you aware that some people with diy yeast co2 and reactors merely turn off their reactors so that the co2 form big bubbles and it "burps" up safely to the surface with minimal dissolving into the water? What happens when you turn off your reactor and keep the gas coming? Does it do something similar? If so, you can put your reactor on a timer instead and then you have a more reliable method of timing your co2 delivery.

Alternately, if co2 is your fear and you value your fish more, then baby tears may be something you'll have to forgo and put in a different tank. This is why a lot of us have multiple tanks. Or try a little of it anyway. It's not like you're not injecting at all. 6 hours of light and co2 is not a bad amount of time. That's hardly "barely." This works for you so you could always just keep on.

Also, there are alternatives to carpet plants that are less co2 dependent. Think of staurogyne repens or Glossostigma elatinoides. Glosso may not look like baby tears up close but from a distance, it's still a very nice green carpet. Some say it's a way easier carpet to maintain. Peruse the aquascape section or the tank journals here. You may just find a better plant to suit your needs.
ipkiss is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2013, 12:05 PM   #18
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Yea, I'll have to give you that that surface is pretty nicely agitated and no surface film. That should've given decent aeration so you seem to have that aspect covered. If you want even more, you can lower the water level and let the hob splash a bit more. Unfortunately, it'll be more noisy. However, you also just disproved your ph swing theory by your ph check. 2 hours and you're into 6.9. I wonder what you get by the time you shut it off?

I shut it off at approximately 11pm last night, the pH at lights off was ~6.3ish and the colour on the drop checker didn't really change from what you see in the video. Question, given what you saw of the colour of the DC in the video would you say I'm still under 30ppm? From what I'm seeing, I am...but my eyes could be playing tricks on me.

As promised, I found another link about co2/o2 relations and how they affect fish. This thread is pretty intensive. O2/CO2 rant May be more than you ever cared to know!

I'll read that this morning while waiting on some server patching, thanks!

At this point, if you still decide to stick with more co2, all I can advise will echo Nightspell's advice. Use an abundance of caution and increase slowly. Perhaps time it a tad more carefully on a weekend when you have time to observe the fish. I'll agree it's definitely tough to time it accurately without a timer. It seems like that's a pretty efficient little reactor you have to get your water that saturated with co2. If you can't turn off the co2 and are not concerned with waste, were you aware that some people with diy yeast co2 and reactors merely turn off their reactors so that the co2 form big bubbles and it "burps" up safely to the surface with minimal dissolving into the water? What happens when you turn off your reactor and keep the gas coming? Does it do something similar? If so, you can put your reactor on a timer instead and then you have a more reliable method of timing your co2 delivery.

I was thinking about that actually, I just wasn't sure what would happen if I kept the Co2 going with the reactor off but what you say makes sense that it should just burp to the surface. I'm going to test these methods this weekend while I can keep an eye on everything. I'd like to keep the co2 going, it's just a matter of figuring everything else out lol

Alternately, if co2 is your fear and you value your fish more, then baby tears may be something you'll have to forgo and put in a different tank. This is why a lot of us have multiple tanks. Or try a little of it anyway. It's not like you're not injecting at all. 6 hours of light and co2 is not a bad amount of time. That's hardly "barely." This works for you so you could always just keep on.

Also, there are alternatives to carpet plants that are less co2 dependent. Think of staurogyne repens or Glossostigma elatinoides. Glosso may not look like baby tears up close but from a distance, it's still a very nice green carpet. Some say it's a way easier carpet to maintain. Peruse the aquascape section or the tank journals here. You may just find a better plant to suit your needs.

I actually have some Staur. Repens in the tank right now, I'm finding they seem to be fairly slow growing for the most part....don't suppose you have any advice on this particular plant? I've had them about a month, and maybe one is ready to have the top clipped and replanted but that's it.
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-30-2013, 03:08 PM   #19
Nightspell
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Nightspell's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Pacific Northwest US
Posts: 304
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by av3ngeme View Post
I was thinking about that actually, I just wasn't sure what would happen if I kept the Co2 going with the reactor off but what you say makes sense that it should just burp to the surface. I'm going to test these methods this weekend while I can keep an eye on everything. I'd like to keep the co2 going, it's just a matter of figuring everything else out lol
Just a thought, but... I don't recall what you're using your hob filter for if you mentioned it; if it's your primary filtration method then disregard this, but if it's a supplementary device and you wanted to put your CO2 on a "timer"... You could theoretically rig your CO2 diffuser up to your HOB filter and put THAT on a timer, and leave the CO2 on. Might lose some CO2 saturation from the flow into the tank, but you could probably adjust for it for the most part.
Nightspell is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2013, 01:16 AM   #20
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Ok so weird development....I came home and my drop checker is kinda green.....the co2 has been off since 11pm last night and so have the lights. pH is normal at about 7.8ish....so I replaced the solution in it and within a few hours went back to the same colour

How do I have 20ppm if co2 if the co2 hasn't been running lol. I'm not using tankwater for this, just the dkh4 solution

Click image for larger version

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1377911753567.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	19.3 KB
ID:	200905

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2013, 03:25 PM   #21
ipkiss
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 324
Default

Where did you get your 4dkh solution? Does it get greener during injection? Does it ever get bluer in your tank? Is your reactor still running? Do you have a small leak that's slipping co2 in even when you shut it off?

It's important to realize too that a drop checker isn't the end all authority on co2 ppm. It's just good to tell that there's some co2 there and when it changes color, there's more or less from before. If your 4dkh solution is slightly off in either way (i.e. 3.x dkh or 4.x dkh), then it'll turn green before it should or later than it should. I've even read that some people intentionally tweak their dkh solution to get the color change to match their desired "estimated ppm"
ipkiss is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2013, 03:28 PM   #22
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ipkiss View Post
Where did you get your 4dkh solution? Does it get greener during injection? Does it ever get bluer in your tank? Is your reactor still running? Do you have a small leak that's slipping co2 in even when you shut it off?

It's important to realize too that a drop checker isn't the end all authority on co2 ppm. It's just good to tell that there's some co2 there and when it changes color, there's more or less from before. If your 4dkh solution is slightly off in either way (i.e. 3.x dkh or 4.x dkh), then it'll turn green before it should or later than it should. I've even read that some people intentionally tweak their dkh solution to get the color change to match their desired "estimated ppm"
The solution is the standard solution that comes with the fluval dc.....it's been in my tank for a month now and has never done this before. Right now to be safe I'm injecting at 1bps

Fish are fine, no casualties at all overnight

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2013, 08:02 PM   #23
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (254/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,116
Default

ipkiss has given you good advice. Take it.

I'd use a pH meter to measure the pH/CO2/KH etc, and toss the drop checker. They seem to do more harm than good overall.

If the pH drop is 1.2 units, that's likely pretty good CO2.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 08-31-2013, 11:04 PM   #24
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Absolutely and I appreciate everyone that took the time to respond immensely. So a 1.2 drop in pH is about what I'm looking for to get close to 30ppm of Co2 than? I'll have to invest in a pH monitor, don't have one currently....the drop checker thing caught me off guard because it's never done that before and there are definitely no leaks as I have the bubble counter and you can see there is non escaping....I even went so far as to shut it off at the regulator overnight again and it was still green this morning so I guess the dc is just screwy

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 02:00 AM   #25
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Picking up a pH controller on Thursday, so hopefully that will resolve any further issues and let me control the Co2 injection with precision.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 02:43 PM   #26
ipkiss
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 324
Default

Sorry to make your life more difficult, but do some research on ph controllers. The irony is that they may not be as precise as you think. A lot of people have complained that they fluctuate too much to keep a steady co2 flow and thus, algae. Some people are fine with it too, but be aware. Ph meter is okay because it's just telling you stuff more accurately. Otherwise, remeber from this thread, the going theory is that at some point, the aeration creates the proper gas exchange and it levels off.

Check this thread:
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/c...ed-tank.26559/
ipkiss is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 02:56 PM   #27
ipkiss
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: FL
Posts: 324
Default

Hmm, there's an interesting debate going on in this thread

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...=ph+controller

I suppose you can try it out and tell us what happened. How's the return policy on it?
ipkiss is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 10:21 PM   #28
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

ipkiss....this is in no way aimed at you, this is just my breaking point lol.....so please don't take any of this as something directed towards your response I'm just at the end of my rope with something that is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby and not an uphill battle.

Honestly those threads are WAY out of my knowledge range and don't help me one iota. To be honest I'm actually getting really really fed up with this whole process, one person will say one thing, another something else, and another something else. Even the so called guru's and experts contradict one another.

I appreciate the heads up on the pH controller, and I'm grabbing one from a guy I bought my light ballast from so for $30 I'll use it for target practice if it doesn't work. I mean this is supposed to be a science and I've never in my life seen so much conflicting "correct" ( and I use the term loosely) information. You can't measure pH reliably from test kits, and I don't care who says otherwise they're full of it...the color variations in the different levels CANNOT be differentiated by the human eye from say 7.2 - 6.8 and that's a 0.4 drop. Drop checkers apparently don't work either, so if you can't determine the pH or the PPM via the drop checker how the hell are you supposed to measure this ACCURATELY.

On top off all that BS I've lost fish due too what I can only assume is the co2 injection and the really infuriating part of that was that NONE of the fish were showing any visible signs of distress, so "watching the fish" doesn't tell me squat.

So someone for the love of god give me something tangable to work with here, no guesses, no hypothesis.....FACTS....please lol....

K rant over, thanks for listening haha

Last edited by av3ngeme; 09-04-2013 at 02:25 PM..
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-03-2013, 10:41 PM   #29
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Now with that said, what is your opinion in this ...I was thinking about you suggesting to use the hob to inject co2 and while I'm not about to hack up my filter for this process ive eliminated the red sea reactor and set up this ceramic diffuser under the intake for my hob....is this just pointless or do you think it would help?Click image for larger version

Name:	uploadfromtaptalk1378248079616.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	38.9 KB
ID:	203193

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-04-2013, 09:23 PM   #30
av3ngeme
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Canada
Posts: 26
Default

Nvm hooked the reactor back up, read that it could destroy the bacteria colonies. Just gonna build an inline tomorrow and hook it to the outflow of the canister

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 2
av3ngeme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012