GREEN DUST ALGAE, i think i found the cure
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Old 07-04-2013, 02:54 PM   #1
happi
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GREEN DUST ALGAE, i think i found the cure


GDA was keep on coming back and i have to clean the glass everyday, at Tom's Recommendation i added 14 bushy nose Pleco, they did help control the algae little bit but glass would be covered with GDA everyday. most of the bushy nose died one by one due to CO2 while other fishes were fine, i think BN are very sensitive to CO2, now i only have 4-5 left. during all these experiment i was Dosing EI and i have also noticed that adding more KNO3 made the GDA worse.

now let me explain why GDA Occur, i know what am about to say would cause debate and there will be a disagreement but you have to try it yourself before questioning. i also discovered low PH water is Prone to GDA when using EI dosing, why? because when using KNO3, Bacteria have to convert NO3 back to NH4 for the plants, plants are normally covered with Bacteria who convert this, but in low PH water Bacteria aren't very active. this might explain why some people have problem when dosing EI and using very low PH. now on the other side EI worked very well in high PH water, keep in mind high PH water is beneficial for Bacteria and they are most active under these conditions.

if you mix methods you get GDA, it explains why i was getting GDA while dosing my own recipe, because i already had tons of fert in the water to begin with, i suppose to do many water changes before i started dosing my recipe. let me explain it better, if you are dosing EI and then switch to Seachem while you already have tons of nutrients in the water, you are likely to get GDA.

i do not get GDA after making the following changes:

Phosphate does not cause GDA, i now add 1ppm of PO4 3x week while using my own recipe which adds 1ppm NO3 and 0.7ppm of NH4 per day. i think having low NO3 might be the main reason GDA stooped and it had nothing to do with PO4. now plants are growing much better and GDA is slowly becoming dark black and falling off the plants, rocks etc. keep in mind my PH is very low and KH is 0. am now using more light than before and GDA hasn't returned yet, this will clear your doubt about who think GDA is caused by high light.

i think too much KNO3 was the real cause of GDA under lower PH tanks. i can Confirm PO4 was not the cause because i still dose the same amount 1ppm 3x week.

i know we have many EI defenders out there and this Thread is most likely to see argument, debate, disagreement and let me be clear, i did not say EI doesn't work or cause Algae, i have said i found that having too much NO3 in low PH is Prone to GDA and EI is the only method which adds tons of NO3 in the water and i have already explained why this occur.

Try it before you disagree, it might take 2-3 weeks but you will get your answer after making those changes.


NEW Update:

lets start with this first:

http://translate.google.com/translat...%23no3&act=url


The amide nitrogen is NH2.
All the problems associated with the introduction of an easily digestible for plants, but stimulating algal growth of the ammonium form of nitrogen NH4 + can easily be avoided by making an even better source of nitrogen for plants - amide nitrogen which is half of the nitrogen source in Seachem Flourish Nitrogen ™ . The amide nitrogen - are compounds in which the nitrogen bound in the form NH2. This will give aquatic plants easily digestible source of nitrogen like NH4 +, but is not available to power the algae:
"... This means that the ammonium nitrogen is not present as free ammonia or ammonium as well as part of a more complex molecule, which can be expanded to plant ammonia and recycling. Algae In theory it would also absorb, but our research and beta testing have shown that this does not occur (ie, very low and is not algae, many have documented that algae are down). " (Gregory Morin, Ph.D. Seachem Laboratories, Inc., Research Director - fins.actwin.com )


now lets take a look at algae:

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/con.../1423.full.pdf


keep in mind NH4 and Urea doesn't stay in NH4 form for very long in the water, eventually it is converted to NO3 if plant doesn't use it, this is the only good reason to have good colony of bacteria, if you have low KH/Ph i suggest adding it in small amount.

ok now lets start by looking at the graphs, if you look at it carefully you will see how Urea and NH4 can increase the Algae growth at much faster rate compare to NO3, but keep in mind, it shows algae growth increase as the days pass by, you wont see any urea or NH4 in your tank for more than couple of hours after adding it, any excess urea/NH4 will be converted to Nitrate within the same day or maybe next day, only NO3 levels can go up. now look at the graphs and you be the judge.

NH4 act as quick boost to plants and Algae and should be used in very small amount. start with 0.1ppm of NH4, Urea on the other hand works little different than the NH4, it break down into the plants in such a way that algae cannot get much chance to use it, something to do with algae lacking enzymes. Urea is better and can be used in higher dose than NH4, you can start with 0.5ppm of Urea if you want to test it.

When using Urea, you must be careful not to overdose too much when using high lights, you will start to see some Blue green and slime algae on the leafs, this is a clear sign of too much light and excess Urea, if this happen dose less.

NOTE:

i apologize about one thing which no one knew or was confused about, i was also confuse about this, i came to find out bacteria has nothing to do with plant taking up Nitrate. someone told me that it does and i used that info till now, but this is not the truth. none of the members here pointed it out, but at the APC they pointed it out. But there could be some truth to it if someone here could explain it better.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...-cure-gda.html
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:08 PM   #2
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You PH would get low anyway with CO2. You also need to achieve the optimal NPK ratio. You can't starve your plants with low NO3 while still maintaining the same level of P and K.
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Old 07-04-2013, 07:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by tetra73 View Post
You PH would get low anyway with CO2. You also need to achieve the optimal NPK ratio. You can't starve your plants with low NO3 while still maintaining the same level of P and K.
lower the PH goes the worse it gets for the bacteria, my starting PH is less than 6 already. i dont think i have said you should starve the plants, you should have some NO3 but there is no need to add tons of it, in hard water EI dosing should work perfect and in soft water no3 and nh4 should work better. i guess you miss the whole point here.
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:35 PM   #4
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What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?
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Old 07-04-2013, 08:51 PM   #5
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lower the PH goes the worse it gets for the bacteria, my starting PH is less than 6 already. i dont think i have said you should starve the plants, you should have some NO3 but there is no need to add tons of it, in hard water EI dosing should work perfect and in soft water no3 and nh4 should work better. i guess you miss the whole point here.
I've seen a lot of cases with softer KH's having GDA, but....then a no# of cases that had a lot of KH, 5-15, that still had bad cases of GDA.

Might be the case though. NO3 vs NH4. I had GDA in Goleta CA, the GH was 24 KH was 11, but I just changed the CO2 and the plants took off, and after 3 weeks, no GDA even again.

GW took a lot of light + a lot of NH4, not sure how much exactly, nor could I rule out the lower CO2 as a possible cause, plenty of folks add NH4, without issues, so NH4 alone does not appear to be a cause for GW. Many have used Jobes sticks and these often pop up out of the sediment, and many got GW as a result. Could be slightly poor CO2+ NH4= algae, but NH4 alone = no algae in most cases.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:13 PM   #6
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What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?
No because you are not adding enough CO2, hard water require more co2 and its hard to dissolve co2 in hard water, poor plant growth and GDA is possible in case of hard water, i have already said you should not have much problem with NO3 when you have hard water, mainly higher PH and NO3 can be easily consumed and converted for plants with higher PH, this is where Bacteria play an important role. i have noticed in very soft water NO3 wasn't being consumed much and co2 was highest as fish could handle, plant growth was still poor until i start to reduce the NO3 and started dosing NH4, GDA started to disappear and plant took off. this is a clearn sign that i was lacking Bacteria which convert NO3 for plants, as i have very low PH.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:13 PM   #7
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What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?
This is what I would like to know. I have a kH of 12 and a gH of 5 and still have been getting GDA. I wouldn't say I have low pH either, my pH is at 6.5 by the end of the photo period. The GDA isn't as bad as I have had it before but it's definitely still persistent. I have tried the wait and scrape with no success but maybe I got a little too impatient and didn't wait long enough because I really got sick of looking at it after a week and a half.

I wouldn't say I have real high NO3 either as I usually dose that pretty lean with the fish load I have contributing the rest. I don't think the culprit to GDA is one thing in particular but rather several variables that lead to it showing up as is the case with any other type of algae.

The next thing I will try is getting some more bushynose plecos as I had in my tank once before and never had much of an issue with GDA when I had several of them but haven't had any in my tank for the last year or so.
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Old 07-04-2013, 11:16 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I've seen a lot of cases with softer KH's having GDA, but....then a no# of cases that had a lot of KH, 5-15, that still had bad cases of GDA.

Might be the case though. NO3 vs NH4. I had GDA in Goleta CA, the GH was 24 KH was 11, but I just changed the CO2 and the plants took off, and after 3 weeks, no GDA even again.

GW took a lot of light + a lot of NH4, not sure how much exactly, nor could I rule out the lower CO2 as a possible cause, plenty of folks add NH4, without issues, so NH4 alone does not appear to be a cause for GW. Many have used Jobes sticks and these often pop up out of the sediment, and many got GW as a result. Could be slightly poor CO2+ NH4= algae, but NH4 alone = no algae in most cases.
Well said Tom and i have already mentioned why it happens in the previous post.

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Originally Posted by ua hua View Post
This is what I would like to know. I have a kH of 12 and a gH of 5 and still have been getting GDA. I wouldn't say I have low pH either, my pH is at 6.5 by the end of the photo period. The GDA isn't as bad as I have had it before but it's definitely still persistent. I have tried the wait and scrape with no success but maybe I got a little too impatient and didn't wait long enough because I really got sick of looking at it after a week and a half.

I wouldn't say I have real high NO3 either as I usually dose that pretty lean with the fish load I have contributing the rest. I don't think the culprit to GDA is one thing in particular but rather several variables that lead to it showing up as is the case with any other type of algae.

The next thing I will try is getting some more bushynose plecos as I had in my tank once before and never had much of an issue with GDA when I had several of them but haven't had any in my tank for the last year or so.
far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.
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Old 07-05-2013, 01:02 AM   #9
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[QUOTE far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.[/QUOTE]

If it was just an issue of CO2 then why does the 6 gallon tank in my kids room using the same water not have any algae at all. The plants are moss, crypts, and windelov java fern and doesn't get dosed with anything. If it was just as simple as not enough co2 causing GDA then a tank that gets no co2 would have it wouldn't it. According to the co2/pH/kH chart with a pH of 6.8 and a kH of 12 I would have around 57.1 ppm of co2. I don't use my drop checker as a reference anymore but I still have it in the tank and it's yellow by 3 hours into the photo period. I don't know how much more I can push up the co2 before causing the fish stress. I don't think that things are always just a simple one thing is wrong therefore that is why you have this kind of algae. Usually a few variables out of balance and that sets forth your issues. Trying to narrow it down to one thing in particular is a little harder for me to accept.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:50 AM   #10
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[QUOTE far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.
Quote:
If it was just an issue of CO2 then why does the 6 gallon tank in my kids room using the same water not have any algae at all. The plants are moss, crypts, and windelov java fern and doesn't get dosed with anything. If it was just as simple as not enough co2 causing GDA then a tank that gets no co2 would have it wouldn't it. According to the co2/pH/kH chart with a pH of 6.8 and a kH of 12 I would have around 57.1 ppm of co2. I don't use my drop checker as a reference anymore but I still have it in the tank and it's yellow by 3 hours into the photo period. I don't know how much more I can push up the co2 before causing the fish stress. I don't think that things are always just a simple one thing is wrong therefore that is why you have this kind of algae. Usually a few variables out of balance and that sets forth your issues. Trying to narrow it down to one thing in particular is a little harder for me to accept.
first of all you must think why we dose CO2, is it to help the plant grow under certain light conditions or do we add it just to gas the fish and kill them, light plays an important role when using co2. that tank you have mentioned might not have good enough light and GDA did not occur as system was stable enough to handle the things. you said the tank doesnt get any dosing, didn't i mention GDA occur when there was too much NO3? i have also said GDA was less when NO3 was less, this can apply to both low and high PH, but you are ok having high NO3 when PH is high. we can argue all day about why it did not happen when you used the same water in both tanks, am sure you are aware of Light being the driving force for algae and plants, how can both system or your tanks have exact same lights? it is also true low or high light GDA can occur in both system, but high light increase it 10 maybe 100 times faster.

if you really want to challenge my theory, go use a 100% RO water and do not add any buffer and dose tons of NO3 and wait for the system to crash and you will get GDA and plant wont grow well either, i suggest doing this when you have ADA aqua soil or substrate that lower the PH. you might be able to get away with this low PH/KH causing GDA issue when using soil that increase the PH/KH such as Eco complete.

this was a mystery until today when people used EI and said it did not work for them, this was the main reason as i explained, now they know why it did not work for them.

people depend too much on co2 ph chart and drop checker, IME they both are inaccurate way to measure co2, they simply lie and only show some truth.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:24 AM   #11
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I been noticing the same thing as I stopped dosing kno3 in my tanks....why? Cause I'm out of it...Either this could be the reason or my Farlowella are taking care of the GDA. Will know for certain once I get Kno3.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:13 AM   #12
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http://aquarium-fertilizer.com/nitra...e-ammonia-does
Not all algae are created equal. this thread shows a bit of what the different stages of algae eat.
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Old 07-06-2013, 10:40 AM   #13
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http://aquarium-fertilizer.com/nitra...e-ammonia-does
Not all algae are created equal. this thread shows a bit of what the different stages of algae eat.
ignored after it said NH4 was the cause of algae. this site is not anything new and this kind of stuff is old now.
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:57 PM   #14
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I may have to try this. My PH and KH are pretty low and I started getting GSA when I started dosing KNO3. I actually was over dosing it as my water used to be the exact opposite and only being about 10 miles away, I figured it would be about the same. I will test what I normally end up with with my current dosing with a nitrate test and then half that. Not sure if that is the best way to start but I will see how it goes, assuming I don't make a few other changes I had in mind.

It does make some sense to me without any scientific proof because this was the one type of algae I rarely got before. Now it's the main one I get and very easily. I wasn't getting it when I first setup because I wasn't dosing at all. Not saying it will work, worth a try for me though.
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Old 07-06-2013, 07:23 PM   #15
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I may have to try this. My PH and KH are pretty low and I started getting GSA when I started dosing KNO3. I actually was over dosing it as my water used to be the exact opposite and only being about 10 miles away, I figured it would be about the same. I will test what I normally end up with with my current dosing with a nitrate test and then half that. Not sure if that is the best way to start but I will see how it goes, assuming I don't make a few other changes I had in mind.

It does make some sense to me without any scientific proof because this was the one type of algae I rarely got before. Now it's the main one I get and very easily. I wasn't getting it when I first setup because I wasn't dosing at all. Not saying it will work, worth a try for me though.
hi there, i also suggest try other source of nitrogen beside KNO3 if you have low kh/ph. you might be getting high reading of NO3 in your tank, i figured plant wont use much NO3 due to the reasons i have explained above. you can also try low NO3 to begin with, if you don't want to try other nitrogen sources.
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