calling those who struggle with GDA
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Algae


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-11-2013, 01:37 AM   #1
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

calling those who struggle with GDA


i have seen many method, most popular one is letting the gda attach to the glass and wait for 3-4 weeks, i have tried it several times and it never worked for me. another method was reducing the light might slow it down but this also slow down plant growth, i had GDA growing in low light and reducing the light doesn't do anything, it made things worse, most plant started to suffer.

when i first setup my tank with ADA soil, started dosing EI, this is when i have seen the biggest outbreak of GDA, i know aqua soil release tons of ammonia during cycle process, but am not sure how much Phosphate it releases in the water. just keep in mind am not bashing EI here, i also tried my own Fertilizer, which actually add more ammonium in the water, GDA was still there, most plants were growing very fast, so was the GDA, actually it was growing faster than the Plants. i have tried reducing the light, GDA grew at fast rate while plant started to struggle.

have you ever notice that GDA can start in the lowest part of the tank and no gda on the top glass, where light is couple inches away from it, how come there is more GDA on the lower part, where light hits in less amount? so you guys still think too much light cause this algae, i dont fully agree, next time look at your tank and see where you see the most algae and you will get the answer.

MCI method known as method of controlled imbalanced, i came across this recently and never heard of it before, even though it was there for long time. before i came to find out about this method, i was dosing 3ppm of Ca during water changes, this is total amount of Calcium in the water and about 0.3ppm of Mg everyday, plant grew very fast and i was also dosing my own recipe know as Happi's ultimate fertilizer, there was no sign of GDA or any other algae, in my recipe there is a lot of NH4 and Fe, i think that extra Fe might been reacting with some of PO4, i was dosing 1ppm of PO4 3x week, i cannot confirm if the reaction was eliminating most of the Fe and PO4 from the water. MCI claim if Ca is higher than Mg and you have too much PO4 you will get GDA, later MCI also mentioned that they are not saying ratio should be Ca 1 and Mg 4, they said Mg is more important than Ca and ratio isnt much important long as Ca isn't very high. i can confirm this because as you can see in the next paragraph, but i still have doubt about it sometime.

when i use to dose EI, i kept all the parameter the same except Mg, i use to dose 3ppm Ca and 15ppm of Mg during water changes, during that time, stem plant use to go wild and tank looked very clean and healthy, no sign of any algae, GDA not even once. maybe plants were using everything i was throwing at them.

i also hear increasing the co2 would help with GDA, actually i have seen it make no difference to GDA, sometime there was more GDA when co2 was very high.


summarize:

GDA can grow in both low or high light, low or high co2. low nutrients or High nutrients, keep in mind i always dosed the same amount of PO4 when using EI or my recipe, GDA was present in both cases and it sometime did not occur in both cases. i think Mg has something to do with it, i always found Mg to help reduce the GDA.

i will soon find out if PO4 and Ca/Mg ratio is the cause of GDA as mentioned by the MCI method. am on my first week of only adding KNO3 and no PO4, have done three 50% water changes to remove PO4. MCI claim i should get green spot algae once po4 hits 0, so far it has been a week and no GSA algae to be found on the glass, GDA is still growing, but i must agree that it is much less than before. am still waiting for the GSA to appear and we will see if it will ever appear, we cannot disagree with MCI on this because this is mentioned everywhere.


story about newly setup tank:

ADA 60 H was setup 3-4 weeks ago, this is run by odyseaa 54 watts, first week of dosing there was no algae, GDA started to show up on the next week, it did not start closer to the light, it was on the lower glass first. i was dosing very low PO4 0.5ppm 3x week. now this makes me believe if GDA is caused by PO4 then Aqua soil must be releasing plenty of PO4, but at a same time i believe it cant be true. i guess after i get GSA in my tank we will know for sure, lets see if MCI claim is true or not. i would also line to mention when i was using PMDD without PO4, there was no sign of GDA or any other alage, but some plant did not grow properly, light was intense and co2 was kept same, in same setup when i switched to EI to make the plant grow better, green dust algae did appear, no offense to EI here.

EDIT: some people here are confusing GDA and GSA, they are two different algae people, GSA (green spot algae) which is hard to come off and GDA (green dust alage) which comes of very easily.

NEW UPDATE

i tested both of the tanks for phosphate that have GDA, API test kits read 0ppm, am not sure if phosphate kits are accurate, but for right now algae is still there, but it haven't spread much. this puts MCI at question, if MCI owner was still around i would ask him this question, but i guess he is not. but its too early too tell, i haven't dose phosphate for 2 weeks now, lets see what happen next. i have left the algae alone and see how far it could spread.
__________________

Last edited by happi; 06-16-2013 at 02:21 AM.. Reason: NA
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 06-11-2013, 04:24 AM   #2
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,343
Default

I recently tried a biological control approach with Small 2" long Bushy nose plecos in mass.

I took out 95-99% o the plants, added the full 100% ATI power to the lighting, stopped ferts for a week or two, then added them back etc, no difference.

I added about 15 of them to the 70 Gallon Manzy tank.

Have not had a link of any glass algae. A little GSA after a month or two now, I also took the CO2 off line for 6 weeks, no effect.

No plants, no CO2.ferts or not, 140 umol of light at the sediment, 380 at the 1" below the surface middle.

I decided to see if a client who had issues when they added more light would be cured using them. Added 30 to a large 240 Gal tank, and doubled the light. No algae.

While I've tested a few different things with it, some of the methods do NOT seem to work for everyone. So I tend to test several times and try and see if other folks can fail at these methods. If so, then we can seek a better method.

Combined with a bunch of Amano shrimp to keep the plants clean, this seems to be a very effective method.

Bushy nose are cheap, available and can be bought small and better them than you.

The tank's both had ADA As also.

MCI, this is simply applying PMDD and limiting PO4.
You end up with GSA and then you go back to adding PO4 once again.
A very long round about way of getting rid of one species of algae for another, but hardly anything new as as dosing. Most can fix this with better gardening and care etc, attention to their tanks.

Since you suggest that GDA grows well without ferts or low ferts, why do also suggest that limiting PO4 somehow cures GDA in the same hypothesis here?

I'm adding plenty of PO4 to several tanks that lack glass cleaning algae eaters, but no GDA and I know I've exposed the tanks multiple times by bring plants covered back and forth.

I've tried this with hair algae also, no go.

Cause?
TOUGH TO SUGGEST/DEMOSTRATE.
Correlation? Easy as pie.

My view is there are few elements going on, one thing that has been shown to reduce the growth and help in management with those who have spent a lot of time messing with it is a reduction in light.

Sewignalot claimed EM would kill it and that it was linked to BGA, but BGA is linked to poor care and dosing etc to begin with. I had a few folks try it, it did not work at all for them after a week or less.

Same with the wait for 3-4 weeks then clean and wipe.


So will the Bushy nose plecos knock out GDA?
The record seems dang good thus far. And importantly, they keep it gone no matter what you do. I'd like to see some of the chronic GDA folks give them a shot to see the results.

The worse you'll have is less algae. They are cheap also.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 05:11 AM   #3
punctatus
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Seattle
Posts: 28
Default

I've struggled with GSA on the glass and the only thing that beat it back was when I got a crack in my tank and I had to remove 80% of the water, cleaned the glass, fix tank, refill and left the lights off for 3 days. I didn't see the gda for about a month, then it started showing up once a week between glass cleanings, then every 4 days, then every 3 days, now it's pretty much every day. Nothing in my routine has changed but the aggressiveness of it is increasing. Time to repeat the big wc and 3 day blackout I guess.
__________________
Hardware: 50 Gallon SeaClear, Eheim 2213 canister, 5lb auto CO2, Seachem Flourite, Eco Complete, 100 watts of T5HO.
Software: Fish, plants, research.
punctatus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 11:22 AM   #4
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
I recently tried a biological control approach with Small 2" long Bushy nose plecos in mass.

I took out 95-99% o the plants, added the full 100% ATI power to the lighting, stopped ferts for a week or two, then added them back etc, no difference.

I added about 15 of them to the 70 Gallon Manzy tank.

Have not had a link of any glass algae. A little GSA after a month or two now, I also took the CO2 off line for 6 weeks, no effect.

No plants, no CO2.ferts or not, 140 umol of light at the sediment, 380 at the 1" below the surface middle.

I decided to see if a client who had issues when they added more light would be cured using them. Added 30 to a large 240 Gal tank, and doubled the light. No algae.

While I've tested a few different things with it, some of the methods do NOT seem to work for everyone. So I tend to test several times and try and see if other folks can fail at these methods. If so, then we can seek a better method.

Combined with a bunch of Amano shrimp to keep the plants clean, this seems to be a very effective method.

Bushy nose are cheap, available and can be bought small and better them than you.

The tank's both had ADA As also.

MCI, this is simply applying PMDD and limiting PO4.
You end up with GSA and then you go back to adding PO4 once again.
A very long round about way of getting rid of one species of algae for another, but hardly anything new as as dosing. Most can fix this with better gardening and care etc, attention to their tanks.

Since you suggest that GDA grows well without ferts or low ferts, why do also suggest that limiting PO4 somehow cures GDA in the same hypothesis here?

I'm adding plenty of PO4 to several tanks that lack glass cleaning algae eaters, but no GDA and I know I've exposed the tanks multiple times by bring plants covered back and forth.

I've tried this with hair algae also, no go.

Cause?
TOUGH TO SUGGEST/DEMOSTRATE.
Correlation? Easy as pie.

My view is there are few elements going on, one thing that has been shown to reduce the growth and help in management with those who have spent a lot of time messing with it is a reduction in light.

Sewignalot claimed EM would kill it and that it was linked to BGA, but BGA is linked to poor care and dosing etc to begin with. I had a few folks try it, it did not work at all for them after a week or less.

Same with the wait for 3-4 weeks then clean and wipe.


So will the Bushy nose plecos knock out GDA?
The record seems dang good thus far. And importantly, they keep it gone no matter what you do. I'd like to see some of the chronic GDA folks give them a shot to see the results.

The worse you'll have is less algae. They are cheap also.
Tom i don't think i suggested limiting PO4, i have said i seen the GDA was worse when i was dosing EI or my method, in both 1ppm of PO4 was used, i never tried limiting it. MCI never said to limit PO4, i don't think you have read what MCI offer, it make perfect sense, they said you dose PO4 when GSA appear, now we both must agree on the part about GSA occurring when PO4 is low. i have said i have yet to see GSA in my tank, am on the 2nd week of MCI and just wanted to see if GDA relate to high PO4. i have not confirmed it yet until i finish the test.

like i said GDA was present in both cases, low light/ high light, low nutrients/high nutrients, but even at low nutrients i haven't came across GSA, this suggest that there is still plenty of PO4 in the water. it require further experiment to see if MCI is correct about this algae, like i said GDA is less compare to before after stop dosing of PO4, am still dosing all the other nutrients, still no GSA.
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 06:02 PM   #5
synaethetic
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
synaethetic's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Morgan Hill
Posts: 324
Default

In my current tank I have struggled with most algaes, defeating the dreaded BBA, greenwater and spirogyra.

Yet the GDA persists despite the maturity and stability of the tank. Standard dosing, consistant c02, decent lighting, and the algae still forms frequently on my glass. never on the plants though, so it really has not caused me much irritation.

My rcs feed on the GDA when it gets thick enough, as does the single otto of the tank, but i usually end up scrapping it all off once a week as they do not put a dent in it.

I oughta invest in a bushy nose pleco i suppose!
synaethetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 03:14 AM   #6
plantbrain
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (255/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,343
Default

The Bushy nose babies have a 100% batting record so far if you add say 3-4 per 20 gallon of tank, at 2-4 $ each, pretty much like shrimp and will mow any glass algae. What I'd like to see is if anyone can still keep their GDA after adding them.


This is independent of dosing, light, plant biomass, CO2 et etc, which is a far more effective range of parameters for people with GDA issues than a dosing scheme. I've tossed the worst possible case scenario at GDA and done nothing other than add Bushy nose in mass.

Sewingalot found she "cured" her GDA with EM dosing, I found leaving it be for a few weeks worked, others have adjusted CO2, tweaked cleaning a bit, lowered light intensity etc. None of those methods cured each and every case nor withstood the full blast light+no CO2+ no plant biomass etc, except this.

Using a worst case is a good method to see how effective a control measure is or is not.
__________________
Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 06:57 AM   #7
dzega
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Latvia, EU
Posts: 425
Default

adding otto catfish to tank was the only way i got it in control. i can get rid of it completly by scraping the glass with magnet and let it re-settle on glass. then otto will clean it in no time. i did it for front glass and it is crystal clear since. i dont do it on back because my otto likes it
overdosing iron seemed to me made it worse. i tried it several times with same results. overdosing few days in a row = GDA boom.
as for po4, im lacking phospates constantly, and honestly dont see how excess phospates can induce any kind of algae

Last edited by dzega; 06-12-2013 at 07:32 AM.. Reason: .
dzega is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:36 PM   #8
Jeff5614
Planted Tank Guru
 
Jeff5614's Avatar
 
PTrader: (52/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 2,703
Default

A few years ago I did a large uprooting and trim in my heavily planted tank and removed about 50% of the plants which were mostly fast growing stems - rotala, hygro, etc. Within a few days I had a raging case of GDA. I used a DE filter and wiped down all surfaces daily and did 50% water changes every other day. Within 10 days it was completely gone never to return. I assumed it was caused by NH4 from stirring up the substrate along with the large reduction in plant mass, but no matter the cause, aggressive mechanical removal took care of it for me.
Jeff5614 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:43 PM   #9
Jahn
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Jahn's Avatar
 
PTrader: (3/100%)
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: NYC
Posts: 683
Default

At one point I had GSA starting, even got that magwipe glass cleaner thing. Since getting my albino BN pleco, that magwipe hasn't been used once. clean clean glass! my neo shrimp haven't been keeping the plants as squeaky clean, maybe it's time to think about getting an amano shrimp or two.
__________________
20 Gallon High Community Tank Journal, Started 4/30/13.
Low-Med Light Plants, Amano Shrimp, Celestial Pearl Danio, Emperor & Neon Tetra, Red Robin Honey Gourami, Longfin Albino Bristlenose Pleco. Sat+ Club
Jahn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 05:12 PM   #10
discuspaul
Planted Tank Guru
 
discuspaul's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 2,156
Default

I had a similar experience to Jeff5614 about 2 years ago in my planted discus tank. I had tried many things over several months to get rid of the GDA, including allowing it to sit untouched for 3-4 weeks - twice - nothing worked.

Then I got out my trusty UV sterilizer, and started a daily routine of brushing the GDA off the glass to get it into the water column so the UV could pick it up & zap it. Didn't take more than a few days of repeating this procedure to get rid of it all. There was less and less GDA each day, and it was completely gone within about a week, never to return.
discuspaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 05:18 PM   #11
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
The Bushy nose babies have a 100% batting record so far if you add say 3-4 per 20 gallon of tank, at 2-4 $ each, pretty much like shrimp and will mow any glass algae. What I'd like to see is if anyone can still keep their GDA after adding them.


This is independent of dosing, light, plant biomass, CO2 et etc, which is a far more effective range of parameters for people with GDA issues than a dosing scheme. I've tossed the worst possible case scenario at GDA and done nothing other than add Bushy nose in mass.

Sewingalot found she "cured" her GDA with EM dosing, I found leaving it be for a few weeks worked, others have adjusted CO2, tweaked cleaning a bit, lowered light intensity etc. None of those methods cured each and every case nor withstood the full blast light+no CO2+ no plant biomass etc, except this.

Using a worst case is a good method to see how effective a control measure is or is not.

even if Bushy nose eat the GDA, does that mean it cure the root cause of GDA?? its like curing other algae with H2O2, does that cure the algae permanently, NO. what if people don't want to use Bushy nose?

i have also tried Erythromycin on GDA and it did not even make a dent in GDA.


Tom i would also like to hear from you, which was ignored, if too much light was the cause of GDA, then why does it grow on the bottom of the glass first and then upper part of the glass, if it was the too much light case, wouldn't GDA grow on the top of the glass first??
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 05:33 PM   #12
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff5614 View Post
A few years ago I did a large uprooting and trim in my heavily planted tank and removed about 50% of the plants which were mostly fast growing stems - rotala, hygro, etc. Within a few days I had a raging case of GDA. I used a DE filter and wiped down all surfaces daily and did 50% water changes every other day. Within 10 days it was completely gone never to return. I assumed it was caused by NH4 from stirring up the substrate along with the large reduction in plant mass, but no matter the cause, aggressive mechanical removal took care of it for me.

Jeff


were you using aqua soil? when you trim the plants you slow down the needed nutrients, they were taking up all the nutrients before you trimmed them. there are some plant which use more of N or P, Ludwigia is being one of them who use high amount of P. you said it was NH4 that caused the GDA for you, but have you thought about after you trimmed the plants PO4 wasnt being used much anymore? what if i prove you wrong on NH4 causing GDA, would you believe me???

am not fully blaming the PO4 for the algae, i have yet to confirm this, i have to continue my test for couple more weeks before i can come up with final conclusion.

i don't want to offend Tom barr but he was against adding NH4 and said it will cause alage, green water etc and he mentioned you will have to change the water everyday when dosing NH4. i can prove this wrong as well, would you believe me if i showed you the results of no water change for 2 weeks with German blue rams living in the water, where 0.7ppm of NH4 was added daily. there was no green water or any other alage, the only algae i got was plant grew like weed.

NH4 cant be the real cause of GDA.
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 05:34 PM   #13
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by discuspaul View Post
I had a similar experience to Jeff5614 about 2 years ago in my planted discus tank. I had tried many things over several months to get rid of the GDA, including allowing it to sit untouched for 3-4 weeks - twice - nothing worked.

Then I got out my trusty UV sterilizer, and started a daily routine of brushing the GDA off the glass to get it into the water column so the UV could pick it up & zap it. Didn't take more than a few days of repeating this procedure to get rid of it all. There was less and less GDA each day, and it was completely gone within about a week, never to return.
i been repeating this everyday and found no cure of GDA with using UV.
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 08:03 PM   #14
chew
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: May 2012
Location: sacramento
Posts: 357
Default

With your nh4 experiment the tank was used to the amount of it added. Maybe excess nh4 to what your bb can handle causes it. Might also explain why it is common in ada after initial setup because of the leeching until the BB catches up. And that might be why leaving it alone for a few weeks works because the Bb can convert the nh4 faster and it is no longer in excess
__________________
chew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 09:55 PM   #15
happi
Planted Tank Guru
 
happi's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 2,760
Send a message via Yahoo to happi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chew View Post
With your nh4 experiment the tank was used to the amount of it added. Maybe excess nh4 to what your bb can handle causes it. Might also explain why it is common in ada after initial setup because of the leeching until the BB catches up. And that might be why leaving it alone for a few weeks works because the Bb can convert the nh4 faster and it is no longer in excess
you came here with the generals fact about the bacteria and missed the whole point, read further:

0.7ppm of NH4 is a lot, that is being added everyday, test results showed constant of 0.5ppm of ammonia/ammonium on API test kits test every other day, so it was always present in the water. my tank had less bacteria and less media to begin with, also with very low ph and soft water, bacteria is less active in these condtions.

you should look into my Ultimate fertilizer thread, you will come to know the answers.

now lets get back to GDA
__________________
happi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012