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Old 12-18-2003, 03:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurp
As for the noise... I know that the ultrasonic part is inaudible.. to a human, but not to frogs. Most frogs CAN hear ultrasonic sounds, that is how they hear each other when they are miles apart, ultrasonic sound travels miles. I was refering to the internal oscilator circuts which hum rather loud. Stick your ear against your tank. I am not making this stuff up, then again the two I purchased could have just been oddly defective, but I doubt that because I can even hear the ones that they sell as home medic therapy lights giving off the same anoying hum, like an air-pump for a fishtank.

Actually ultrasound is frequencys above 16kHz. Most frogs hear (50 Hz - 4 kHz) the lower end of the human spectrum (64 Hz -23 kHz) and below, the infrasound range. Infrasound travels great distances, much further than ultrasound.
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Old 12-18-2003, 03:37 PM   #17
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Once again, I didn't want to start debate.

I feel much more confident about purchasing this again...

Thanks for the mind picking, I learned a few things, and relearned a few things.
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Old 12-18-2003, 07:09 PM   #18
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Zurp,

I didn't prove your argument - I said that the sites are spouting off information, which they have no factual basis for. I realize that you feel the sensation of 'burning/freezing' when you put your finger in front of an ultrasonic transducer when in operation. This is totally understandable. As I said before, the frequency is really high. The frequency is meant to vibrate fast enough to turn water into vapor - everything that passes in front of it is subject to similar effects, if the material responds to that particular frequency and amplitude in the same way. I don't really know how else to make this clear to you. As for the 'freezing' - your finger may have felt cold, which it is probably was. However, because of how small the water particles are that come off the transducer, the evaporation rate is higher than water droplets of larger size. If you've ever sprayed water on your hand with a hand sprayer, you probably know that the water, even if at room temperature, makes your hand feel cold. This is because of evaporative cooling - it is the same thing that happens when you get out of a 100 degree F hot tub, and for some reason are freezing - it is all due to evaporative cooling. The reason your finger feels cold is that tiny water particles are coming in contact with your 98 degree F skin, and evaporating at an extremely high rate. For further evidence of this, dip one hand in a bowl of water, and spray the other with a fine mist sprayer. Not only should the sprayed hand feel cooler, but the sprayed hand will become dry much sooner than the hand that was dipped in the bowl of water. The ‘freezing’ you experienced was due to the process of evaporative cooling, not tiny ice crystals being injected into your skin. As I established in my last post, water does not crystallize under compression.

You are right about how the same technology in humidifiers (ultrasonic transducers) have many different uses. However, as stated in some of the sites presented, they DO NOT have cleaning properties because of ‘anions’ in the air. They have cleaning properties because of the particles of water being put into the air, which have a partial electric charge – and the water particles are small enough to effectively attach to allergens and pollutants, add to their weight, which may bring the particles down to the ground. This goes back to the properties of water and the polarity of the water molecule. Furthermore, whenever you wash your hands with soap, you are going through a similar process of polar molecules reacting with other molecules. Most soaps are phosphorus based lipids (phospholipids), which attach themselves to dirt, biological, and other particles. It is the polarity of the water molecule and the size of the vaporized water particles, that give ultrasonic transducers their ‘cleaning’ properties.

You are also right that ultrasonic transducers DO NOT ‘evaporate’ water. They vaporize water. Water vapor can be achieved without boiling – for example: hand misters, misting systems for produce and terrariums, and ultrasonic transducers. While hand misters and misting systems do not use sonic vibration to produce the vapor, ultrasonic transducers do. There is no boiling, freezing, or otherwise associated with any of these processes. Additionally, you mentioned that some things were left out of consumer advertisement, but included as fine print… If the advertisement is wrong, it is highly unlikely that the fine print will somehow be correct. Just because the companies can take a technology and reproduce it and market it, doesn’t mean that the company knows every physical and chemical process that occurs with their product. Just because I can build my own computer does not mean that I know how all of the parts work – manufacturing and marketing are rarely concerned with HOW the parts work. They are usually concerned with IF the parts work. I can also confidently say that marketing and manufacturing of these devices does not include even a basic understanding of the properties of water.

I also have to address your terrible misconception that (I quote), “…at higher pressure, water boils faster”. It is the absolute opposite. At LOWER pressure, water boils faster – at HIGHER pressure, water boils slower….. This is why, at sea level, water boils at 212 degrees F, and at one mile above sea level, it boils at ~210 degrees F. This is why on the Moon, water would seem to boil at even lower temperatures. High pressure = high boiling point. Low pressure = low boiling point. Simple as that. Boiling occurs when vapor pressure equals atmospheric pressure.

Don’t believe what you learn in school, eh? High school, maybe. I don’t know what schools you’ve attended, but I have full confidence in the PhDs I have had the pleasure of working with and learning from. In a university, you usually have text books, which were not only written recently, but often written by the professor you are being taught by. The information is usually cutting edge (at university level), in accuracy and age of the material. I am sorry that you don’t think we should believe what we are taught in school, but I assure you – it depends on what academic background you come from. Now, the patent office… Thanks, but I will believe a physics or chemistry professor with a PhD before I will believe the patent office. Information submitted to the patent office is often based on research done by the person submitting the patent. These submissions may be as low as mere hypotheses – with no lab, or further research completed to verify the claims. You are kidding about the time machine thing, right? I won’t even delve into that one right now.

Oh, and the website you submitted as evidence for your claim: Do you know what a transition metal complex is? A transition metal complex is a complex of ligands attached to a central metal atom. For instance [Co(Cl)2(NH3)4] is a transition metal complex. This is called Dichlorotetraamine Cobalt (II). This is a level of chemistry, which has nothing to do with the properties of water. Yes, sonochemistry does deal with the compression/decompression of mediums, and the effects of sound on certain materials. However, transition metal complexes (what most of this website was dealing with) are completely separate from the properties of water. This website was an excellent example of what you are concluding. This website was about sonochemistry, and where it is useful. It is useful when dealing with TRANSITION METAL COMPLEXES. NOT WATER! It was a good observation, and it was good that you saw a relationship, but the conclusion is incorrect. Transition metal complexes behave much differently than water in more situations than sonochemistry.

Once again, I insist – as long as animals do not come in contact with the ultrasonic transducer, it is safe for them. The mist produced from transducers is nothing, but water vapor. If used in excess for the particular species, ultrasonic transducers can cause infections – as can happen with humans if humidity is too high. Contamination to the container of the transducer is the worst possible effect – the way to avoid contamination is to keep the container clean, regularly. Otherwise, there is NO reason to fear the usefulness of a transducer – it is a tool, which can be used in moderation, or in excess. Vitamin C is GREAT, but in excess, it is dangerous. Also, there is NO REASON to believe that even frogs can hear the sound produced by sonic transducers. As I said before, the frequency is more than 20x higher than the audible range for even the smallest animals. Again, if you can prove me wrong, beyond reasonable doubt, I will concede. Until then, I believe you are wrong.

Peter
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Old 12-18-2003, 07:29 PM   #19
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The call of the northern spring peeper, Pseudacris crucifer, has a dominant frequency of 3 khz.
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Old 12-22-2003, 12:40 PM   #20
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http://www.stulz-ats.com/STULZNA/wave.htm

More info from the government... http://www.pnl.gov/fta/14_ultrahumid/14_ultrahumid.htm

One more thing that I feel is worth mentioning... The canister that houses the oscillator circuits and pizzo-element heats up rather quick, the water cools the element (In these models). The mist will absorb a lot of heat on contact and during its departure from the waters surface. So, your water will get warm, and your tank will get cold.

If your fogger stops working, it may also be from overheating, there is an electrical shut-down, in addition to the water level sensor.

They did not lie, the pizzo-element will not heat up your water when creating fog... If that were the only part of this in the water, then that would still hold true. However, they failed to mention that the oscillator circuits will heat up, and in these models the circuits rest in the water.

And, although these are cheaper than traditional methods of atomization of water, this is still expensive for "Full Time Operation".

I also purchased another fogger, (The same exact one I returned). I am making the setup for it now. It will sit in in a custom housing, made from a bucket and acrylic. The acrylic has three parts: the center wall; the ultrasonic fogger stand; and the bottle stands. The center wall is used to keep the bottles separate from the fog chamber. The bottle stands hold the bottles at the proper height, so that they auto-level the water to its desired height. The fogger stand keeps the fogger angled slightly to produce a long stream that emits more fog than the usual orientation. There is also a fan on the bottle side of the separator that is used to draw air inside the container.

Air passes over the top portion of the wall, using the bottle side as a baffle of sorts. The slot on the top of the wall is long and thin, allowing a steady layer of air to push fresh arid air down, and the thick fog up through the delivery tubes. You raise and lower the fan to achieve the desired pressure. Fog is delivered to the tank by two 3/4 inch thick tubes of equal length. The tubes protrude through the top of the lid, and almost touch the water surface. The dense/cool fog is at the bottom and the warmer and lighter fog is at the top.

(Use fog from the bottom for that cool rolling fog look that will moisten only the floor area, use fog at the top for a cloud-like mist that will evenly moisten all of your tank, and will also rise out into your room.)

I will Post plans and photos as soon as I am finished. I will also post costs and possible substitutes for materials. I am not exactly going all-out on this project, but I am over-doing it a little! Besides it is neat, (Organized), and is actually plan "B"... plan "A" was excessive and more complex.
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Old 12-22-2003, 06:44 PM   #21
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Zurp,

First of all, learn to read. I never once said that I doubted that the technology was invented over 40 years ago..... NEVER! Just thought I'd set that straight.

Secondly, I am glad you finally did some research before spouting off about something that you didn't actually understand. However, I have to point out that you have changed your story so many times, that it seems pointless to keep talking to you about this. From flash freezing and boiling to cavitation…. From evaporating to not evaporating…. From frogs can hear it to frogs can't hear it….. You changed your story so many times, about so many different topics, that you have no credibility. I also noticed that you went back and edited your posts – hmmmmm……. Interesting that you edited your posts, isn’t it? It looks like you edited 6 posts (all on December 19), which happens to be ALL OF YOUR POSTS. It is nice to see that you took out things, such as “ice crystals being injected under your skin”. What was your motive in doing this? Was it an attempt to discredit all of us that went against you? Or was it your way of admitting that you were wrong? From the actions I have observed here, I am willing to guess that either, 1) you are really young and think you are smarter than you are, or 2) you are middle-aged and cannot stand to admit that you are wrong, even if you are. You could have made this entire process easier by just admitting you were wrong, and attempting to learn from what was being said on the message board, rather than discrediting yourself by repeatedly reinventing your story and editing ALL of your posts!

Now for the ultrasonic transducer discussion: Your last post just outlined what I said about how ultrasonic transducers work – I didn’t go into as much detail as the links you posted because I was having to explain the properties of water, and why what you were saying was absolutely absurd – too bad those absurdities have been mysteriously erased from your posts. You are right about cavitation, though….. Cavitation and oscillation are processes that aid in creating the mist generated by ultrasonic transducers. As I established in my previous posts, the high frequency is responsible for the mist (cavitation and oscillation are products of the high frequency). Your links are not in argument of what I said – they are in absolute support of what I said, and they are completely contrary to what you originally said!

You still don’t understand boiling, do you? Boiling is molecular excitation – but “boiling” cannot be produced by an ultrasonic transducer! You obviously used something like, hyperdictionary.com to find your definition, but also obviously misinterpreted the context of the definitions. “Boiling-over” (taken from your last post) is NOT a different PROCESS than boiling! To ‘boil-over’ is to ‘boil’ liquid until the liquid goes over the side of its container. Boiling-over is simply liquid, with a high level of agitation from boiling (heat induced), that goes over the sides of its container. Why is this so difficult to understand?

You also say, “Fluids Boil-Over faster at low pressure, and Boil faster at high pressure, the bubbles just never leave the surface that they are created on, because the pressure holds them down, EG, Pressure cooker... Remove the top to stop it from boiling!”. You couldn’t have stated this more incorrectly. The ‘bubbles’ are not ‘held down’ – when you put water in a pressure cooker and add heat, you are simply increasing the atmospheric pressure of the container. When you do that, you raise the apparent boiling point of the water – the water in the cooker ‘boils’ at a higher temperature. Also, fluids DO NOT “boil faster at high pressure”. Once again, high pressure = high boiling point, low pressure = low boiling point. Fluids DO ‘boil-over’ faster at low pressure – this is because the boiling point is lower with lower pressure, so the fluids are more likely to boil over the barriers of their containers when heated and boiled. So, ‘boiling-over’ is not a different process than ‘boiling’ – it is simply what happens when something is allowed to ‘boil’ to the point that the fluid is allowed to leave the edges of its container. You have the idea more right than before, but you are still mistaken.

You are, once again, wrong about the audibility of ultrasonic transducers. Have you ever heard a sine wave? Sine waves have no “variation” and are undeniably audible. Audibility has nothing to do with “variation” – audibility has to do with frequency, wavelength, and amplitude. If the frequency of a sound is too high, or too low, we cannot hear it. If the wavelength is too long, or too short, we cannot hear it. If the wave doesn’t have enough amplitude, we cannot hear it. If an ultrasonic transducer uses a frequency higher than 20kHz, we cannot hear it – variation, or no variation. If an ultrasonic transducer uses a frequency higher than 80kHz, we cannot hear it, and frogs cannot hear it. Since ultrasonic transducers operate in the megahertz range, frogs and humans cannot hear them [PERIOD!]. The ‘variation’ in the sound wave is not what controls the audibility of a sound – it is the wavelength, frequency, and amplitude that determine audibility.

I think it is dishonest and ridiculous that you altered ALL of your previous posts to hide your level of incorrectness. I also think it is ridiculous how many times you have altered your story to sound right, even if your alteration was equally incorrect. You could have made this entire process easier by admitting that you were wrong, and doing further research to find the actual answer. Even though your recent effort was better than past efforts, you still do not seem to understand some of the basics. While I applaud your recent effort, I must remind you that your links verified what I was trying to explain to you all along. You will find that I have not altered any of my posts because they all are in direct consensus with the links you provided. Based on the links you provided, I am glad you finally acknowledged what I have been trying to tell you all along. Do you feel like you understand the process of ultrasonic transducers better now, than when this topic started? I am really glad that you do not seem to believe that “ice crystals are injected into your skin” anymore – too bad you deleted these sorts of statements from your previous posts – they would have been an excellent example of possible misconceptions.

Thanks,

Peter
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Old 12-23-2003, 03:05 PM   #22
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I never said that the advertisement was wrong, you did, right after I posted the advertisements links... Every site that advertised this you said was wrong.

I said that they left stuff out that would possibly cause you not to purchase this... stuff they know are issues, and legally have to mention in the operation manuals.

You win, or whatever you want to hear... Oh, I also edited my horrible spelling, as I do with EVERY post I ever make. Unlike your posts. Now, if I only had a good grammar checker!
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Old 12-23-2003, 03:29 PM   #23
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Zurp,

First of all, my quote does not, in any way translate into how you interpreted it - once again, you are wrong.

Again, you are wrong about computer processors - you do not hear the processor - you are hearing fans and your power supply. You are not hearing the frequency that the processor is operating at.

I never twisted your words - I took them directly from your posts. You have been nothing, but wrong throughout this entire argument. Also, I never even made one spelling error - I am sorry that you are not educated well enough to spell, or recognize a correctly spelled word. If you can find a spelling error, let me know. Otherwise, you may want to consider removing yourself from this message board because you are spreading incorrect information to everyone who reads your posts.

Peter

The mind is a terrible thing to waste - go back to school!
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Old 12-23-2003, 06:10 PM   #24
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Maybe Zurp has come here to learn and convey his experiences. If he puts his ideas out and they are proven wrong and he realizes his errors, then good for him he has at least learned something new. Now you Peter, on the other hand, have done nothing except come on this board and tell Zurp about how wrong all of his ideas are in this post and in another post. Do you have some sort of personal vendetta against him? At least he is being constructive to the group as a whole in giving some input. You have written nothing but flames against him. Maybe it is you who should remove yourself from this board. You have contributed nothing to it, so why not go?


Edited for spelling
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Old 12-23-2003, 06:27 PM   #25
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I visit this board every morning and again before I head to bed. I use to better my knowledge of things. I have been working 2 years now trying to figure out exactly what I want to do with my tank. And just before I start to gather the items I change my mind again. But coming here has helped me make more educated decisions. The non sense bickering isn't needed here. We all have opinions, we have all learned from our experiences one way or another. And hopefully we can come to this board and act like adults and have a good conversation/debate with out trying to put one another in the dumpster about it.

Remember we all use the forums to better our knowledge lets keep it that way!!!! Don't make me put you both in corners and apologize to each other! <nods>
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Old 12-23-2003, 06:29 PM   #26
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Well put Dee!
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Old 12-23-2003, 07:05 PM   #27
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Good points -

All I am saying is that Zurp is asserting opinions with 'as a matter of FACT' type statements. As I have repeatedly pointed out, they are not correct, and they are not constructive for anyone who reads them. If you state something as FACT, you need to back it up. If someone offers a better, or more accurate explanation, questions should be asked, not facts asserted without substantiation. My only point in all of this has been to get correct info up - I have been met with resistance by Zurp and his 'FACTUAL' statements. From what I have observed, he has not attempted to 'learn'. It isn't worth arguing for me anymore - I came here to find some new information about terrariums/vivariums. I now know that FACT from Zurp is to be taken with strong skepticism. I'm sorry that I haven't had a chance to contribute anything positive. I assure you - you won't find me asserting FACT when I don't actually know the answer. At least we all have a better understanding of ultrasonic transducers work now, right?
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Old 12-23-2003, 07:10 PM   #28
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That's fine, but a bit of civility can go a long way. Just post what you want to say and know to be right and back it up without coming flat out and saying "You are wrong!" Stating something in that way is almost always taken as being offensive.
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Old 12-23-2003, 08:03 PM   #29
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I never said you have spelling errors, I was saying that you didn't edit your posts... You were commenting on my editing every post... I always edit my posts. Even the perfect ones (As rare as they are!).

My fogger is almost ready. Through practice, I had to redesign part of the fog chamber due to the fact that it was rather shallow. I also intend to use this for delivering a constant supply of humid and fresh air, which also influenced my final design. Easy to clean, easy to access, organized, compact, and relocatable with little effort.
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Old 12-23-2003, 09:36 PM   #30
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P.S. Thanks guys, I apreciate the support!

Dee, did you ever decide what you were going to do with your 55 gallon tank?
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