Selecting a mazzei for CO2 and closed loop filtration systems
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Old 08-19-2008, 09:50 PM   #1
helgymatt
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Selecting a mazzei for CO2 and closed loop filtration systems


Mazzei injectors are a new(er) way of injecting and misting CO2 into the aquarium. They are designed to replace CO2 reactor, needle wheel, or diffuser. The technology behind the injector is provided by the manufacturer here. http://www.mazzei.net/products/injector_info.htm. They are better at describing it than me. The advantage of a mazzei over a glass diffusers, disk diffusers, or needle wheel pumps for misting is that they can be placed inline with a pump and thus keeping equipment OUT of the tank. They require a good amount of pressure to make them work, so not any old canister filter will work. A quick search for mazzei will lead to more discussion about what others have done. I'll compile a list and add it to this thread later.

I must have spent 12+ hours trying to understand the concept of mazzei's and how to select which model will work best for aquariums and the different types of pumps / filters we use. In all actuality, I wanted to know which mazzei would work for ME. Here I will attempt to explain my system and how I am going about selecting a model to make it easier for others to select theirs.

Here is my system:
75 gallon tank with bulkheads in the bottom. I run an Iwaki WMD-40RLT to pump water through an ocean clear filter and then back into the tank through another bulkhead. The pump is rated for ~800gph and ~21ft of head pressure. Since mazzeis work best with a lot of pressure on the inlet I thought my pump would be perfect. Most canister filters do not operate at anywhere near this flow or pressure, so canister users do not assume that the same mazzei I select will work for you.

I have seen some aquarists use Mazzei models 384, 484, and 584 with no REAL good explanation why one works better than the other.

Some members have told me to use the smaller (384) model. It is know that mazzeis require decent pressures to operate. I was told that the small pumps we use in aquariums would be best suited for the smaller (384) mazzei because they would require less pressure to operate than a larger one. If you use a larger mazzei with lower pressures than the effect is larger bubbles and not as good misting. When I explained my system to an engineer at Mazzei he seemd to think otherwise. I think my pump may be more powerful than the "typical" aquarim pump.

Here is his quote. The 5psi is the psi that reads on my Ocean Clear filter. I'm not sure if that is actually the pressure that would be in "front" of the injector or not.

"
Matt,
If I use your stated operating pressure of 5 psi (11.6), this corresponds to a pump water flow rate of ~ 10.25 gpm. If we pretend there is no pressure loss across the filter, the injector inlet would also be 5 psi. If you wanted to run all of the water through the injector, a large (and expensive) 1.5 Model 1583A would be required. Since you stated that you are going to install the injector on a bypass, there are several injector models that should work properly. I would probably select a Model 484 or 584, rather than the Model 384, as they are both more efficient (require less pressure differential to begin injection) than the Model 384. These models (484 & 584) are available with either or MNPT threads, and are molded from polypropylene or PVDF.

Whichever model you decide to try, you can purchase it from one of the following distributors:

Ryan Herco 1-800-848-1141 www.ryanherco.com

Harrington Plastics 1-800-213-4528 http://www.harringtonplastics.com"


I would love to hear others opinions on this subject! I'm sure others will challenge this advice (mrkookm) but this is good so we can actaully start some good discusion about these things. I'm counting on more discussion because I still havn't decided which one to order.

For those interested, here are the prices from Ryan Herco
http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products.../829110110.cfm

Matt

Last edited by Wasserpest; 08-29-2008 at 04:24 PM.. Reason: Changed Title as requested
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:05 PM   #2
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Thank you Matt,

Great write up, I too am building a new office tank with bulkheads on the bottom.
I opted for a GenEx pump similar to the one you have. I also purchased 2 mazzei injectors to try out, like you I was not sure which would work best.
But now after reading this I think Im glad I ordered 2 models to be sure.
I do plan on using my pump only for powering the mazzei ONLY.
I will let you know how my set up works as soon as its plumbed up.

Regards, Orlando

Last edited by Green Leaf Aquariums; 08-20-2008 at 03:18 AM..
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:10 PM   #3
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Here is how I plan to plumb mine...
Intake > Pump > Ocean Clear > Mazzei and bypass> Outlet.

Orlando,
I think running a pump solely with a mazzei would be best if you could make it work that way. The fact that as the filter clogs the flow would be reduced, and therefore reduce the efficiency or function of the mazzei. BUT, if you have a bypass, you can direct more or less flow to the mazzei as needed. The gentleman at mazzei also suggested it would be best to have the mazzei right at the outflow of the pump, but this will not work for me, because (1) in order to get mist in to my tank the mazzei has to be after the filter and (2) I cannot put my filter before the pump because water has to be pushed through the filter, not pulled.

Which models did you buy and intent to try?
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:15 PM   #4
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I have a 584 and 384. One has 1/2"mpt and the other is 3/4" mpt..

So,,its mod here and there I guess to see which works best..
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:16 PM   #5
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I havn't really seen anyone use a 484...any reasons for that?
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Old 08-19-2008, 10:17 PM   #6
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584 and 384...
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:26 AM   #7
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I totally agree with what the Mazzei rep said regarding the volume that can be pumped by using a bigger Mazzei, but is this what we are after? If that's the case why not just put the Co2 line to the pump inlet and get Co2 in the tank at high rates, we do not need a Mazzei to do that.....agree? Do you really think that the Mazzei rep even remotely understands the level of efficiency we are after with what we are trying to do Their expertise is aerating ponds & mixing chemicals / air in large bodies of water.

What we are after here is efficiency with our Mazzei implementation, sure the concept is the same, but we are after much greater efficiency with all of the following.... mist for better dispersion (not bubbles), dwell time & dissolution.

Take a spray bottle for example 'the kind that can be screwed clockwise to restrict (create more pressure/force) or counter clockwise (less pressure & squirts more easily).

1) Which direction would mist better and why do you think it would?
2) Which direction would effectively cause the output dispersion to all areas when sprayed?
3) Which will cause the output to dwell longer in the air?

Now taking all the above into account what size Mazzei (384~584) would yield better results with your Iwaki WMD-40 for our needs?
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkookm View Post


1) Which direction would mist better and why do you think it would?
2) Which direction would effectively cause the output dispersion to all areas when sprayed?
3) Which will cause the output to dwell longer in the air?
LOL! I love this analogy I would turn it clockwise so it mists, disperses, and dwells better.

I completely understand where you're coming from when you say the rep has little idea of what we are trying to do. I guess I forgot to tell him I wanted some mist of CO2, not complete diffusion (is this the right word?)

So a 384 then, huh?
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Old 08-20-2008, 01:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
So a 384 then, huh?
Still not sure huh

I use a 384 on my 90gal with a 3ft open sump and a CPR 150 overflow also with no seal or cover and I have excellent co2 response / levels at all times.

You have a 75gal with a canister= you will kill fish very easily.


On a different note:

Improved Mazzei loop (top)

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Old 08-20-2008, 02:02 AM   #10
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Yeah, I'm mostly sure. Just wanted to see a response. Nice loop by the way. So how concerned should ppl be about too fast of a pH drop? What are the precautions?
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkookm View Post
On a different note:

Improved Mazzei loop (top)

Nice.... What is the reasons for using the mazzei on the main
line as in your picture as opposed to having it on the bypass line?
John
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Old 08-20-2008, 02:43 AM   #12
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That is a good question, Id also like to know...
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Old 08-20-2008, 05:22 AM   #13
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I also have one more question regarding mazzei performance. What are we looking for with these setups? Let's say you have no way to check if it's working properly by measuring co2 or using a drop checker, is there something we should aim for when using these, mist, suction etc.? I hope my question comes across the way I mean it to.
I know the objective is to get good mist and dissolution of co2, but where does the suction come into the whole thing? With my setup, it seems like I can get good mist whether there is a lot of suction or hardly any suction, that's where my question comes in.
Thanks,
John
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Old 08-20-2008, 12:56 PM   #14
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Are you speaking of suction via the inlet port on the mazzei?
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Old 08-20-2008, 03:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
What is the reasons for using the mazzei on the main
line as in your picture as opposed to having it on the bypass line?
John
To get more pressure applied to the inlet due to the direct path.


Quote:
but where does the suction come into the whole thing?
No...it's not the suction we are after and we ceratainly do not have a need for it either because our cylinder is already under intense pressures which will go where ever it wants to What we are after is creating the most pressure we can through the injector. This is what makes the super fine mist & efficient dissolution in the water possible as the Co2 gets ripped into a million bits under high pressure flow.
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