liquid fenbendazole, hydra, shrimp other inverts
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:54 PM   #1
TheDrake
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liquid fenbendazole, hydra, shrimp other inverts


My tank got infected with hydra after a plant trade. I decided to use meds to eliminate the hydra, since they are, at best, competing with my fry for food and, at worst, possibly preying on or at least stinging the fry. I know that most people seem to be using the canine tabs, and I have seen comments in this forum suggesting that the liquid form has questionable ingredients that are to be avoided (see inactive ingredient list here). But I also have goats, so we have the Safe-Guard liquid goat wormer on hand. A little more digging revealed a shrimper who successfully used the liquid goat med to eliminate planaria and hydra while sparing all other inverts. The shrimper is dosing 2.5mg/gal but the dog pill people are using a dose 4x as high. So, I gave the liquid form a try in one of my tanks, dosing the lower 2.5mg/gal. Hydra gone. Fish fine. Mollusks fine (ramshorns, bladders, ponds, limpets). Worms fine (Grindals and blacks). Copepods fine. Excellent.

Next up was the RCS tank. I know that the dog pill people say shrimp are unaffected at 10mg/gal, and the shrimp guy said his were unaffected at 2.5mg/gal. But this is my 1st group of shrimp, and all 5 girls are currently berried. I donít want to mess that up! But I do want to get rid of those hydra before the shrimplets fledge. So, I started with 0.25mg/gal, thatís 10% of the conservative dose. Within just a few hours, the hydra shriveled up and the berried gals seemed unaffected. Whew! Oh, thereís an apple snail in there too; not only was it not hurt by the drug, it's been so much more active in its grazing since the hydra are gone. I wonder if they were stinging the snail?

So, what have we learned?
1. The liquid form of the med seems to work just fine despite any questionable inactive ingredients.
2. A dose as low as 0.25mg/gal (1/40th of what is commonly recommended!) seems to be effective against hydra. I wonder how low I can go?
3. A dose of 2.5mg/gal had no apparent impact on fish (and fry), mollusks, worms, or copepods while 0.25mg/gal had no apparent impact on shrimp, including berried females. Note: I donít keep nerites and other members say it kills them!

Just thought Iíd share that experience, for the record.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:37 PM   #2
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Very nice of you sharing the details. I just did some calculation for your reference.

When I used to dose fenbendazole for hydras (I don't now, I find spixi snail smore nature and works as well), I dose 0.1 gram of safe-guard per 10 Gallons.

0.1 gram x 22.2% = 0.0222 gram of fenbendazole (safe guard is 22.2% of fenbendazole)
10 Gallons is about 38000 grams

0.0222/38000 = 0.58 ppm <-- that's what I use


Are your dosage of liquid fenbendazole based on pure fenbendazole or the liquid itself? It will make a big difference as I don't think the liquid is pure fenbendazole.

Another thing is, when I dose that amount, I normally don't see hydras shrink until maybe 12 hrs later, but you observe immediate reaction, so I'm not sure how to explain that if your dosage is actually lower than mine. Maybe liquid form just acts faster which does make sense (so maybe you need less of it).
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randyl View Post
I dose 0.1 gram of safe-guard per 10 Gallons.
yep, that's the 10mg/gal that the dog pill people all use. if that is 0.58ppm, then the shrimp guy was using 1/4 that or 0.145ppm of the liquid goat juice, and I had 1/10 of what he had or 0.0145ppm.

Quote:
Another thing is, when I dose that amount, I normally don't see hydras shrink until maybe 12 hrs later, but you observe immediate reaction, so I'm not sure how to explain that if your dosage is actually lower than mine. Maybe liquid form just acts faster which does make sense (so maybe you need less of it).
Good point. I assume that the liquid acts faster simply because it is already dissolved, whereas I've read that the powder takes forever to dissolve. It really was just a few hours from dose to reaction in my shrimp tank, which got the lower dose, but it was longer in my primary tank, which got the higher dose; not sure how that works, but it was what it was! Maybe it reached all the parts of the shrimp tank (just 10gal) faster than in the main tank (~150gal). Regardless, it does seem to work at these lower doses, although I am watching now to make sure they don't bounce back in case I didn't get them all!
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:02 AM   #4
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ive used panacur before (same med) and it has not harmed my apple snails or ramshorn. the snails it seems to affect are nerite. i really didnt have any prob getting mine to dissolve. i took hot water (my tap reachies 120 degreese) put in a syringe and put in a glass then mixed with powder and it worked great. then right into the tank. i only use 1/10 of a gram or 10mg and i didnt see any reaction like that.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:12 AM   #5
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Also the powder is only 222mg of medicine per gram, or 22 percent strength. I'm not sure what the goat juice is as far as strength I've seen liquid as low as 5 percent and high as 50.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:26 AM   #6
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O yah, and for the record, I never had a snail, nerites or otherwise die from it, but I've heard of nerites dying from it, so whenever I send some out, I put a warning to remove them
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:46 AM   #7
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Most commonly available fenbendazole suspension is 100 mg/ml. Shake well as it does settle out over time.

I an currently attempting to rid a tank of planaria with it - not yet successful and I may have just torched the blackworms that were setting up shop. I thought they were annelids ... whoops?
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Old 03-29-2013, 01:55 AM   #8
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So if liquid is 100mg per ml, and the OP used .25 ml per gallon that's 25mg of straight panacur per gallon, when using panacur powder at a strength of 10 mg of 22 percent powder per gallon, that's equivalent to 2.2 mg of straight panacur per gallon, so really the OP was dosing 10 times the recommended amount, and 100 times the recommended amount in their other tank. Woof.
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Old 03-29-2013, 04:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordalphus View Post
So if liquid is 100mg per ml, and the OP used .25 ml per gallon that's 25mg of straight panacur per gallon, when using panacur powder at a strength of 10 mg of 22 percent powder per gallon, that's equivalent to 2.2 mg of straight panacur per gallon, so really the OP was dosing 10 times the recommended amount, and 100 times the recommended amount in their other tank. Woof.
Um, no. Watch the units. What I said was "I started with 0.25mg/gal" in the shrimp tank, not 0.25ml/gal. To get that low dose I drew up a quarter ml (25mg) which would have given me 2.5mg/gal in a 10-gal tank, as the shrimper did in the link I posted above. Then I chickened out and decided to dilute it and start with a much lower dose, only titrating up if I needed to. I arbitrarily chose 10%. So I took that 0.25ml (=25mg) and diluted that to 2ml (12.5mg/ml) then delivered only 1/5 of 1ml (=2.5mg) into a 10-gal tank (= 0.25mg/gal) leaving the rest sitting by the tank for IF I needed it. As it turned out, I did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chibikaie
I an currently attempting to rid a tank of planaria with it - not yet successful and I may have just torched the blackworms that were setting up shop. I thought they were annelids ... whoops?
Sorry to hear that. This low dose I'm using does not affect blackworms, but I have heard that it takes more of the drug to kill planaria than hydra. The shrimper in the link above was getting good results on planaria with 2.5mg/gal (1/4 the dog pill dose) but he did not mention blackworms.

Last edited by TheDrake; 03-29-2013 at 04:58 PM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #10
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good information. thanks thedrake!
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Old 04-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #11
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Hello, I have successfully used in 2010 3 drops of Fluvermal 20 mg/ml of flubendazol, on my 7.5gal shrimp nano, I can't even calculate ppm for that dosage!

All hydras were gone by the next day, with no visible effect on shrimps or snails.

I recently reactivated the nano, and the hydras have shown up again, so I am going to drop the 3 depth charges once more!

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Old 04-09-2013, 06:37 PM   #12
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I've notice that my shrimp tank is infested with water fleas, hydra and some kind of worm that doesn't appear to be planaria. I think all this is due to the fact that I was trying to raise some sea monkeys in this tank well before adding shrimp.

I really hate the idea of dosing flubendazol. I'd like to go the natural way if possible. I've heard mollys eat hydra and water fleas. Anybody know if this is true? Will mollys eat shrimp? I was thinking about letting the hydra take care of the fleas (I've seen them eat the fleas already), but I'm worried about my berried shrimp and the possibility of the hydra hurting the babies.
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Old 04-09-2013, 06:44 PM   #13
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I would not want hydra (or mollies!) in with my baby shrimp. Water fleas (assuming you mean daphnia?) should not be a problem.

For the record, my hydra have still not come back after the low dosing, and the berried mums went full term and dropped hordes of healthy baby shrimp with no apparent problems.

good luck
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:13 PM   #14
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I think they are daphnia. They are so tiny I can't positively ID them. They just skip around in the water all over. They are getting quite a population going and I want to cut it back.

Maybe I'll break down and grab some meds. Does petco/petsmart sell the powdered form?
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