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Old 03-26-2013, 05:55 PM   #31
DarkCobra
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Hey Marko,

Stef's a bit discouraged after reading that the daily losses aren't normal, so for now I'm replying for her. Bettas and breeding are her hobby, not mine, but I've been involved in enough to give details.

The first picture of fry is not in their normal container, and was just used for a clearer photo.

The other two show their normal container, a plastic shoebox. There is no sponge filter or biomedia. She read for weeks prior to doing this, and it seems everyone suggests very different ways things absolutely should be done. Seems the more you read the more confusing it gets. But most suggested even a sponge filter would be unsafe for newborn fry, so she went with what appeared to be the consensus. They're now about 2.5 weeks old, and will be moved to a larger tank shortly.

Ammonia tests are done daily, as are removal of wastes and old water using a turkey baster, and addition of aged water via a slow drip system. She steps up the amount as needed based on the test result.

The heater is a heating pad underneath the shoebox, set to low. Not fully temperature controlled, as there is no thermostat in the water. But it was covered with layers of fabric until it successfully achieved a stable 84F for a full day prior to breeding, and it seems to be holding quite well. We're looking at a possible upgrade to heat film and a closed-loop temperature controller for future spawns.

We do have BBS cysts on hand. Stef has been hoping to put off hatching them as long as possible, as she's never done it before, and would like to keep things as simple as possible. But you may be right that it's time to "cave" and proceed with that. In the past few days, she's also been feeding a mix of Angel's Plus fry starter along with finely crushed Hikari Betta Bio-Gold, which some are now eating, but not all.

Any additional suggestions are welcome.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:41 PM   #32
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sorry to hear she is discouraged.
there are die-off points where some fry may fail to develop properly and die, but itll be a handful (if any) over 48 hrs, and then no deaths after that. some new every day, means something is hurting them.
but thats nature. in nature, out of all the spawns a betta in a stable population has, only 2 fry (on average) would survive to reproduce. so tell her not to feel too bad.

how much water can the shoebox hold? ive heard of spawns in such containers, but i prefer 10 or 20 gallon tanks filled partway, then filled up over the first 2 weeks. more water is better than less. but different methods can achieve similar results.

so there is sometimes NH3 above 0ppm? thats likely your problem.
the tank needs to be cycled. do you have other tanks? take a small handful of biomedia from them and put it in with the fry.
ive never spawned without any filtration. hell once i even spawned with a HOB filter on low with a current killer and sponge over the intake (it worked too). i like sponge filters though. set it on 1-3 bps during the spawn and first week, then start bumping it up. my mustard gas fry are 25 days old, and their sponge filter is on at 75% strength. im also changing a gallon a day each day this week, and will do 5 gal a day next week, the week after ill be doing 100% (10gal) WCs daily. clean water is the best thing there is for em. just be sure its the same temp and params.

doesnt matter how you heat the water. if its stable at 84, temp is not the problem.

at 2.5 weeks, i say start up those BBS asap. as i said, i know where she is in regard to the trepidation in doing it. but it is surprisingly easy. the little shrimp can hatch in just about any mixture. then strain some through a coffee filter, rinse with tap, and swish em into the tank.

here is a great resource on betta breeding, helped me out a lot when i was getting started: http://bettysplendens.com/articles/c....imp?catid=856
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Old 03-26-2013, 07:53 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
sorry to hear she is discouraged.
No worries. Temporary and she's already bouncing back. I'm still replying at this point only because I'm better with technical details.

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how much water can the shoebox hold?
About two gallons.

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Originally Posted by @marko@ View Post
so there is sometimes NH3 above 0ppm? thats likely your problem.
Yes, there's always a trace, as expected since there is no real biofiltration. Both this and the small size seem odd to me as well, given my general fishkeeping experience, and even odder that it seems to be common advice for raising betta fry. But since it's Stef's project, she always gets final say on which methods to try. I only advise, experience is the best teacher and can't be told to sleep on the couch.

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do you have other tanks? take a small handful of biomedia from them and put it in with the fry.
Hmm, the only biomedia I could currently remove intact from other tanks is plastic scrubbers. Though I'm thinking this might present a trap hazard to fry. I have some old ceramic biomedia and will get it into filters today for future use, and see if there's something else that could be improvised/adapted more immediately. Maybe I can just cut a chunk off of an existing sponge, LOL.

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ive never spawned without any filtration. hell once i even spawned with a HOB filter on low with a current killer and sponge over the intake (it worked too).
Did the same once with Glofish fry. Wasn't seriously expecting it to happen, as they're supposed to be sterile, and so didn't do anything special other than what you described. Still ended up with about 50 making it to maturity.

Will take the other advice and the link, discuss it with Stef, and figure out a plan. She'll post any changes made.

Thanks Marko!
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:47 PM   #34
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No worries. Temporary and she's already bouncing back. I'm still replying at this point only because I'm better with technical details.



About two gallons.



Yes, there's always a trace, as expected since there is no real biofiltration. Both this and the small size seem odd to me as well, given my general fishkeeping experience, and even odder that it seems to be common advice for raising betta fry. But since it's Stef's project, she always gets final say on which methods to try. I only advise, experience is the best teacher and can't be told to sleep on the couch.



Hmm, the only biomedia I could currently remove intact from other tanks is plastic scrubbers. Though I'm thinking this might present a trap hazard to fry. I have some old ceramic biomedia and will get it into filters today for future use, and see if there's something else that could be improvised/adapted more immediately. Maybe I can just cut a chunk off of an existing sponge, LOL.



Did the same once with Glofish fry. Wasn't seriously expecting it to happen, as they're supposed to be sterile, and so didn't do anything special other than what you described. Still ended up with about 50 making it to maturity.

Will take the other advice and the link, discuss it with Stef, and figure out a plan. She'll post any changes made.

Thanks Marko!
this is the most common method of tank setup in the USA, and the one i use: http://bettysplendens.com/articles/p...?articleid=722

cutting off a bit of sponge filter would work. maybe place it next to an airstone set on low to juryrig a sponge filter?

actually glo fish spawning is pretty common. i didnt even know they were supposed to be sterile. many people get them to mate with ordinary zebra danios and make all kinds of weird hybrids (not technically hybrids, as they are the same sp, just one was had a recombinant gene put in).
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:04 AM   #35
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shoot, i lost every single fry four times in a row before i found out i had a dragon fly larvae...

sometimes things happen. its not easy to care for an animal that evolved with a few hundred thousand times more space than we are able to give them in a house.

on a side note, i find that if the water is clean and the fry are dying, they are usually starving.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:52 AM   #36
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Stef! I completely missed this thread somehow but that's a gorgeous betta and I hope the fry raising is looking better for you. I'm subscribed!
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