FILSTAR+CO2 line
Planted Tank Forums
Your Tanks Image Hosting *Tank Tracker * Plant Profiles Fish Profiles Planted Tank Guide Photo Gallery Articles

Go Back   The Planted Tank Forum > Specific Aspects of a Planted Tank > Equipment


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2003, 11:15 PM   #1
fishpoop
Planted Member
 
fishpoop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: kitchener On. Can
Posts: 162
Send a message via AIM to fishpoop
Default

has anyone tried putting a "yeast co2" line into the intake of a xp1 or 2?
was it effective in dissolving the bubbles?
I would like an xp1 for my 20 and then ditch the hagen ramps!
they are inefficent, b/c I lose a lot of co2 out the top of mine. I think with a canister and possibly external reactor I could up my co2 levle and lower my yeast changes. what do you think?

thanks, fp
fishpoop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 09-29-2003, 12:09 AM   #2
Rex Grigg
Planted Tank Guru
 
Rex Grigg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland Orygun
Posts: 9,600
Send a message via ICQ to Rex Grigg Send a message via AIM to Rex Grigg
Default

With a cannister and a external reactor you will be set. I would not run the CO2 line into the intake though. And your external reactor should be on the out flow line of the reactor. You can build an external reactor out of PVC pipe for just a few dollars.
Rex Grigg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 01:40 AM   #3
Wasserpest
Are these real?
 
Wasserpest's Avatar
 
PTrader: (163/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 14,872
Default

fp,
I had my DIY CO2 going into the inlet of my XP3 first with an external kinda reactor (just an empty gravel vacuum tube), then without reactor, and now with the reactor on the outlet, but still inline. When connected to the inlet of the canister, I achieved 100% dissolved CO2, but very fine bubbles spit into the tank every afternoon. Interestingly this was not CO2, but O2 pearling or air. Not sure of the physical reasoning behind that...
I just switched to having it on the outlet side, and this seems to work better for me. But try it... just let it bubble into the inlet without any reactor and see what you get. I am having other issues with my XP3 not being completely sealed, and so I end up with air in the canister, with or without CO2. Trying to get another O-Ring right now.
Wasserpest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 03:30 AM   #4
fishpoop
Planted Member
 
fishpoop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: kitchener On. Can
Posts: 162
Send a message via AIM to fishpoop
Default

so you had bubbles comming out because of the leak not the undissolved co2 right.?
It would be great to have a clear external reactor b/c you can see when it's time to change the brew!
ANd Rex why do you sugest the out flow
if you put the reactor on the inflow the water will push the bubbles back down the tube ...I think
fishpoop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 04:20 AM   #5
2la
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
2la's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 993
Default

Wasserpest, I'm curious how you determined you were receiving 100% dissolution? Although I do agree with you that the bubbles coming from the filter were probably oxygen rather than CO2. Speaking of which, are you sure the filter actually has a leak? Almost invariably this results in a leakage of water out of the filter rather than a leakage of air into it. I suspect that what you're seeing is due to oversaturation of the water with oxygen. If the inflow of water before it reaches the impeller is impeded in any way, it results in negative pressure (a vacuum, essentially) within the canister that pulls gases out of solution. Because the impeller is located at the top of the filter housing, the air accumulates there and is broken up by the impeller into tiny bubbles that finally emerge from the outflow.
2la is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 12:15 PM   #6
Rex Grigg
Planted Tank Guru
 
Rex Grigg's Avatar
 
PTrader: (65/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Portland Orygun
Posts: 9,600
Send a message via ICQ to Rex Grigg Send a message via AIM to Rex Grigg
Default

If you put the reactor on the input line you stand a good chance of damaging the pump on the filter. You have to do a little plumbing on the out flow line to get the water coming into the top of the reactor and exiting the bottom, the CO2 should be injected low into the reactor. I use bio-balls in my reactors to keep the turbulence going and I do get all the CO2 dissolved. There is no gas in the reactor and none coming from the spray bar. There was a discussion on this subject at Aqua Botanic and it was pretty much agreed that the reactor does better on the out flow line.
Rex Grigg is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 02:50 PM   #7
Wasserpest
Are these real?
 
Wasserpest's Avatar
 
PTrader: (163/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 14,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishpoop
so you had bubbles comming out because of the leak not the undissolved co2 right.?
No I wouldn't say that. The fine bubbles were more like mist, and since they only came out in the afternoon I think it has something to do with oxygen saturation and pressure changes of the water in between entering the pump and leaving the spraybar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishpoop
It would be great to have a clear external reactor b/c you can see when it's time to change the brew!
Just use a gravel vac tube... with two endcaps. To see when you have to change the brew, actually a bubble counter is much better, and serves as a CO2 cleaner as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishpoop
ANd Rex why do you sugest the out flow
if you put the reactor on the inflow the water will push the bubbles back down the tube ...I think
I resolved that problem by putting the reactor IN the tank, so it is still straight inline and pushing down the bubbles. Since doing that, there are no more fine bubbles created either, they all get mixed up in the reactor.
Wasserpest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 03:15 PM   #8
Wasserpest
Are these real?
 
Wasserpest's Avatar
 
PTrader: (163/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 14,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
Wasserpest, I'm curious how you determined you were receiving 100% dissolution? Although I do agree with you that the bubbles coming from the filter were probably oxygen rather than CO2.
Like deja vu :mrgreen: I still think if the bubbles disappear into nothing I get 100% dissolution. Just can't imagine what else could happen to them, even though you told me otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
Speaking of which, are you sure the filter actually has a leak? Almost invariably this results in a leakage of water out of the filter rather than a leakage of air into it. I suspect that what you're seeing is due to oversaturation of the water with oxygen. If the inflow of water before it reaches the impeller is impeded in any way, it results in negative pressure (a vacuum, essentially) within the canister that pulls gases out of solution. Because the impeller is located at the top of the filter housing, the air accumulates there and is broken up by the impeller into tiny bubbles that finally emerge from the outflow.
I know you know more about this than I do, but I think you are contradicting yourself... You point out there is negative pressure in most parts of the canister filter system, up to the impeller, which sits on top of the filter, basically the last part before the water goes through the outlet hose back into the tank. Negative pressure = air leaking into the filter, not leakage of water out of it. That's what I think I see in my case, and I am not sure where the air enters the filter. I checked all of the inlet hose/pipe connections, and suspect either the main O-Ring or the "Quick-connect" coupling of the XP3. I think that is unrelated to fp's question regarding the CO2 though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
Because the impeller is located at the top of the filter housing, the air accumulates there and is broken up by the impeller into tiny bubbles that finally emerge from the outflow.
In my experience (and pump) air collects in the upper area of the XP3 housing. If the pump doesn't leak air, this would be the place to dissolve any CO2 that goes into the inlet.

At this point I'd have to agree with Rex that the outlet is a better place for CO2 injection, not because the pump can be damaged, but because of the tiny bubbles that in my current setup don't appear anymore.
Wasserpest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 07:22 PM   #9
fishpoop
Planted Member
 
fishpoop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: kitchener On. Can
Posts: 162
Send a message via AIM to fishpoop
Default

if I put a clear tube in the tank for a reactor like you it would fill with algae. didn't yours?
ps thanks for the answers guys
fishpoop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-29-2003, 07:58 PM   #10
Wasserpest
Are these real?
 
Wasserpest's Avatar
 
PTrader: (163/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 14,872
Default

I had mine outside (but still hit by light) for 2 or 3 months. At the end it had some brown algae growing in the end. Now when I switched it to the outlet and inside the tank, I cleaned it out. Not sure how long before it starts to grow algae... but taking off the endcaps, cleaning it and putting the caps back on shouldn't take longer than 10 minutes... it's all under water, so it doesn't even have to be filled and primed.
Wasserpest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2003, 12:06 AM   #11
fishpoop
Planted Member
 
fishpoop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: kitchener On. Can
Posts: 162
Send a message via AIM to fishpoop
Default

I'v read all the reactor posts and I dont know who to follow
finding parts will be the most diffucult I think
rember it's only a "jungle" 20g so I dont need rexs 3' reactor
(although it would work quite well)
you guys know what worked, so do you have any links you think I should follow as plan A.
simple, good looking, easy parts (for XP) ,efficent, thats a lot to ask.
thanks
fishpoop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2003, 12:48 AM   #12
2la
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
2la's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 993
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasserpest
Like deja vu I still think if the bubbles disappear into nothing I get 100% dissolution. Just can't imagine what else could happen to them, even though you told me otherwise.
I'm not sure where I told you otherwise what was happening to the CO2 bubbles? I just asked how you were sure there was 100% dissolution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasserpest
I know you know more about this than I do, but I think you are contradicting yourself... You point out there is negative pressure in most parts of the canister filter system, up to the impeller, which sits on top of the filter, basically the last part before the water goes through the outlet hose back into the tank. Negative pressure = air leaking into the filter, not leakage of water out of it.
Actually I'm not contradicting myself at all. I'm talking about two different situations. I'm saying that IMO you probably don't have an airleak at all but a negative pressure situation only. When you inject CO2 into the intake, you're supersaturating the water coming into the canister. Any negative pressure within the canister will tend to pull gases out of solution, and that gas is more likely to be oxygen than CO2 owing to oxygen's lesser solubility in water. While CO2 and oxygen don't normally displace each other in water, this is a situation that favors the pull of gaseous molecules from solution so oxygen will be the 'preferred' gas to form. You can thus still achieve full CO2 dissolution and still airlock the filter. This problem is lessened when injection is done into the output side because the input water is less saturated with CO2, leading to less of a 'displacement' effect in a negative-pressure setting. Now where I DID misunderstand you is that you've moved things to the output side of things and are STILL having problems with airlocking. But I still would favor this to be the effect of negative pressure rather than an air leak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasserpest
Negative pressure = air leaking into the filter, not leakage of water out of it.
Again, that's IF there actually IS a leak in the setting of negative pressure. Usually, however, it's the outflow that gets clogged and backs up the filter, creating positive pressure within the canister and resulting in water seeping out of the canister through any leaks rather than an airlock within the filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasserpest
In my experience (and pump) air collects in the upper area of the XP3 housing. If the pump doesn't leak air, this would be the place to dissolve any CO2 that goes into the inlet.
This totally congruent with my explanation, as it is with yours--it's just a question of which situation is more likely and we obviously disagree on that. But as Rex stated, you risk impeller damage over time when you expose it to CO2 gas.

I actually hope I'm wrong about your XP3 not having a leak, because then a simple O-ring replacement would take care of it all. If it's a supersaturation/negative-pressure issue, it will be somewhat of a pain in the butt to figure out and address what's backing up the filter.
2la is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2003, 01:36 AM   #13
m.lemay
Planted Tank Guru
 
m.lemay's Avatar
 
PTrader: (9/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Naugatuck, CT.
Posts: 2,647
Default

Man, you guys get deep :lol:
__________________
FILSTAR Pimp #2

75 gal heavily planted,50/50 Black beauty,Eco-complete substrate, Pressurised CO2 with solenoid, ph controller, AB Reactor 1000, 330 watts 9325K GE PC lighting,Ehiem Liquidoser, 2-Filstar xp3 canisters.
m.lemay is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2003, 04:03 AM   #14
fishpoop
Planted Member
 
fishpoop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: kitchener On. Can
Posts: 162
Send a message via AIM to fishpoop
Default

thanks 2la i'll keep that in mind when I have a supersaturation/negative-pressure issue
fishpoop is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 09-30-2003, 06:09 PM   #15
Wasserpest
Are these real?
 
Wasserpest's Avatar
 
PTrader: (163/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 14,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
I'm not sure where I told you otherwise what was happening to the CO2 bubbles? I just asked how you were sure there was 100% dissolution.
I tried to find the post where we had this discussion before, but can't find it anymore. You explained something about the importance how the bubbles are dissolved... I think it was you ops:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
Actually I'm not contradicting myself at all. I'm talking about two different situations. I'm saying that IMO you probably don't have an airleak at all but a negative pressure situation only. When you inject CO2 into the intake, you're supersaturating the water coming into the canister. Any negative pressure within the canister will tend to pull gases out of solution, and that gas is more likely to be oxygen than CO2 owing to oxygen's lesser solubility in water. While CO2 and oxygen don't normally displace each other in water, this is a situation that favors the pull of gaseous molecules from solution so oxygen will be the 'preferred' gas to form. You can thus still achieve full CO2 dissolution and still airlock the filter. This problem is lessened when injection is done into the output side because the input water is less saturated with CO2, leading to less of a 'displacement' effect in a negative-pressure setting. Now where I DID misunderstand you is that you've moved things to the output side of things and are STILL having problems with airlocking. But I still would favor this to be the effect of negative pressure rather than an air leak.
This makes a lot of sense. I wonder why that happens to some people (I remember Rumples had a similar bubble issue) and not to others. Could it be that the lower light intensity in my tank (compared to others) leads to a reduction in CO2 usage, therefore a higher saturation, even though I am "only" using DIY? I really really ought to get that kh test kit :roll:. If the negative pressure is the problem, opening up the inlet to ease the inflow might reduce it... I am using sponges and some ceramic thingies, nothing that inhibits the water flow too much from what I can tell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
Again, that's IF there actually IS a leak in the setting of negative pressure. Usually, however, it's the outflow that gets clogged and backs up the filter, creating positive pressure within the canister and resulting in water seeping out of the canister through any leaks rather than an airlock within the filter.
But if the rotating impeller is the last element in the canister, pulling the water through the pump, the pressure only increases after it, in the outlet hose/pipe, not before it, in the canister?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2la
I actually hope I'm wrong about your XP3 not having a leak, because then a simple O-ring replacement would take care of it all. If it's a supersaturation/negative-pressure issue, it will be somewhat of a pain in the butt to figure out and address what's backing up the filter.
I will keep trying to fix it... thanks for your time and thorough explanations.
Wasserpest is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rena Filstar XP series Review AJ_Wave Equipment 29 04-02-2013 06:14 PM
Please help: Filstar XP3 will not start! Schala Equipment 13 08-03-2004 02:48 PM
Rena Filstar XP 3 question lokobreed Equipment 12 03-13-2004 04:04 AM
Kent botanica Line plantastic28 General Planted Tank Discussion 16 12-25-2003 12:50 AM
Yet another Filstar XP topic. mario Equipment 2 07-15-2003 08:58 PM


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Planted Tank LLC 2012